| CURRENT EVENTS Israel vs. Iran, and where will the US fit in?

One is prosperity pimp the other is not. That is the only difference. They both teach rapture hooey. Look it up…invented around 1850. Any preacher selling this is wrong. It is a false narrative.
You might want to back track on this one. There are mentions of the rapture that go back as far as 15 centuries.

There has been a notion that follows your assertions but there have also been documents cited that debunk the same notion. One more than 15 centuries...I can't think of the name off the top of my head (on my phone, not going to look it up.) The Shepard, maybe?
 
Your churches take on 1 Thess 4:16? Invented or understood around 1850?
The Church is 2,000 yrs old starting with the Apostles. I can’t & don’t speak for the Church but to take those verses (not just the one) and say that shows the faithful are raptured out to avoid suffering is a real stretch. John Nelson Darby is your perp.
 
You might want to back track on this one. There are mentions of the rapture that go back as far as 15 centuries.

There has been a notion that follows your assertions but there have also been documents cited that debunk the same notion. One more than 15 centuries...I can't think of the name off the top of my head (on my phone, not going to look it up.) The Shepard, maybe?
There have been mentions of all manner of thought through the centuries, the fact remains that John Nelson Darby built an entire theological framework around this notion.
 
Not based on tradition. So will the Lord descend with a shout and the dead be raised first and the living caught up to ever be with the Lotd? Can we have confidence in this? Or is this part of the “whole council of God” that is to be ignored?
 
Not based on tradition. So will the Lord descend with a shout and the dead be raised first and the living caught up to ever be with the Lotd? Can we have confidence in this? Or is this part of the “whole council of God” that is to be ignored?
What is being ignored? May I ask your denomination since you mentioned tradition? Paul did say keep traditions as well as verbal, not just what was written to believers.
 
What is being ignored? May I ask your denomination since you mentioned tradition? Paul did say keep traditions as well as verbal, not just what was written to believers.
I get that rapture is not based on tradition. Promulgated in 1850. So what does the verse mean? Reads like (scripture only) that we, Christians, will be caught up out of this world to be with the Lord forever. Is that not rapture?
Denomination? I believe every word in Bible, even where it say “Genuine Leather”😀
 
I get that rapture is not based on tradition. Promulgated in 1850. So what does the verse mean? Reads like (scripture only) that we, Christians, will be caught up out of this world to be with the Lord forever. Is that not rapture?
Denomination? I believe every word in Bible, even where it say “Genuine Leather”😀
So non-denominational then?
 
Not trying to paint you in a corner but what does that verse mean? My denomination has no bearing on the meaning of this verse. I am truly interested in what you think it means. The verse is in the Bible which is the inspired infallible word of God. Reads “caught up” or rapture. Then I would say it’s not hooey….
 
Not trying to paint you in a corner but what does that verse mean? My denomination has no bearing on the meaning of this verse. I am truly interested in what you think it means. The verse is in the Bible which is the inspired infallible word of God. Reads “caught up” or rapture. Then I would say it’s not hooey….
Does it say that it occurs before, during, or at the end of tribulation? I say the rapture theology as taught is hooey. Anything other than after tribulation would have Christ returning more than once. Here is where you can make the legalistic argument that its not a 2nd coming until Christ sets foot on earth. Your denomination is relevant, you made it so when you spoke of tradition.
 
You are asking me to critique a group he considers having a fatalistic view. I can only speak for those I've met.

He is seeing the dream of eternal life with the Lord, which happens after death, as a longing for death when these groups are looking forward to life.

I think the notion "people are looking forward to Armageddon" is hyperbolic; borderline foolish. If I were to ask 100 "religious people" if they are looking forward to Armageddon I doubt I'll find a yes among the group. People want an apocalypse?

His view is fatalistic.
 
Does it say that it occurs before, during, or at the end of tribulation? I say the rapture theology as taught is hooey. Anything other than after tribulation would have Christ returning more than once. Here is where you can make the legalistic argument that it’s not a 2nd coming until Christ sets foot on earth. Your denomination is relevant, you made it so when you spoke of tradition.
It doesn’t say and there are 3 views, pre, mid, and post Tribulation. So which one is hooey? Rapture and Second Coming are 2 separate events, separated by 7 years. This 7 year Tribulation is the last “week” of the prophet Daniel’s 70 Weeks, Daniel 9 20-27. I would speak of church tradition in the negative and in full agreement that we each have our own Bible.
 
You are asking me to critique a group he considers having a fatalistic view. I can only speak for those I've met.

He is seeing the dream of eternal life with the Lord, which happens after death, as a longing for death when these groups are looking forward to life.

I think the notion "people are looking forward to Armageddon" is hyperbolic; borderline foolish. If I were to ask 100 "religious people" if they are looking forward to Armageddon I doubt I'll find a yes among the group. People want an apocalypse?

His view is fatalistic.
A common refrain from many in Orthodox circles.
"If you die before death then you won't die after death."
 
It doesn’t say and there are 3 views, pre, mid, and post Tribulation. So which one is hooey? Rapture and Second Coming are 2 separate events, separated by 7 years. This 7 year Tribulation is the last “week” of the prophet Daniel’s 70 Weeks, Daniel 9 20-27. I would speak of church tradition in the negative and in full agreement that we each have our own Bible.
Rapture & 2nd coming are 2 different events? Christ makes a 2nd & 3rd coming? Is it safe to assume that you have a MacArthur Study Bible? You did leap to his defense when I lumped him in with TD Jakes. They are both nothing short of heretical.
 
You are asking me to critique a group he considers having a fatalistic view.
No, he mentions multiple groups: Christians, Muslims, and zionists, essentially any group with messianic and/or apocalyptic aspects to it.
He is seeing the dream of eternal life with the Lord, which happens after death, as a longing for death when these groups are looking forward to life.
No, he's not addressing merely life-after-death beliefs. He's specifically addressing eschatological, apocalyptic, and messianic religions. And yes, even Zionism of both the non-orthodox and atheistic varieties are messianic because they believe that only an exclusionary Jewish state can save the Jewish race. So Zionists replace God as savior with a Jewish government as savior.
I think the notion "people are looking forward to Armageddon" is hyperbolic; borderline foolish. If I were to ask 100 "religious people" if they are looking forward to Armageddon I doubt I'll find a yes among the group. People want an apocalypse?
It's possible that 100 of your closest associates don't believe in the evangelical apocalyptic vision. I personally don't know any Protestant Christian who disavows the idea that the world will end (sooner rather than later) but that they will be "okay" due to their devout faith. But to your point, people are complex, and most people don't wear their eschatological views on their sleeves, nor do they dwell on it. This is where cognitive dissonance plays a role. Yes, most believers, like non-believers, are largely attached to their lives, families, friends, occupations, possessions, hobbies, etc. BUT (and here's the point that Hitchens would make, as would I) they also mitigate their worries about the future by means of theology. This translates into a kind of sloth regarding injustice, environmental abuse, wars, and other overwhelming issues that seem too large to tackle. When pressed, as I often like to do, they will actually say something like, "Well God will sort it all out." It's this kicking the can down the road and expecting a messiah (or someone else “greater” than them) to fix the biggest problems in the world, rather than accepting their is no one else other than us humans. Or just the opposite happens ... rather than inspiring helplessness their beliefs inspire extremism, such as "breaking a few eggs" for “the greater good,” or to ethnically cleanse a strip of land your ancestors were exiled from thousands of years ago, because your god said way back then that that land belonged to your “people.”
His view is fatalistic.
Now you're just misusing the term. To be fatalistic means that you believe the future to be fixed and predetermined, which undermines your agency to affect change. Hitchens was most certainly NOT fatalistic.

On a side note, has anyone seen Dune 2 yet? The way it portrays prophesy is very illuminating as it pertains to this discussion.
 
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@24and7
@64Tide
@XXL TideFan
@TerryP

Expounding on the point I expressed earlier (how if you're fatalistic and expect things to get worse, you're less likely to demand improvement), here is a 4 min clip addressing apocalypticism, the rapture and Zionism, which I'd love any of your thoughts on.


He falls into the same rut tried by all atheists, there can’t be a God because of this, this or that. Religion is wrong because of this, this, or that when the concepts that he uses to describe (evil, wicked, good, bad) are all from religious beliefs. You can’t have love & goodness without God or the opposite without Satan. Don’t give me any Hammurabi hooey, him and his system of laws are long lost.
Lastly, in my opinion anyone claiming to be an atheist disagrees with something in the Bible and decided there wasn’t a God so they created their own religious system of denial. Deny there is a God, write books on it, go on TV but make no mistake it is a religion. I became an atheist because while I was in the Navy my mother died from cancer and left 2 minor children at home. In my mind a merciful, loving God would never do that. Never mind that Mama smoked 2 packs of Salem everyday for the entirety of my life. I probably did more bible study as an atheist than I have as a believer.
 
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