🏈 Will Saban's 3-4 work against the spread (merged topics)

[musso]

It should be mentioned, and I don't think it has been, that Chris Jordan and Mark Barron will eventually be LB's at Alabama.

some indeed have predicted this. under Shannon and Richt, they'd probably see the field sooner unless our lack of LB depth demands their contribution. in a 4-3 under Shannon and Richt, guys like Fanney and Rolando McClain would have their hands in the dirt at the snap. i get the feel that Saban ordinarily wants his lightest LB at around 230.

 

[TerryP]

It should be mentioned, and I don't think it has been, that Chris Jordan and Mark Barron will eventually be LB's at Alabama.

some indeed have predicted this. under Shannon and Richt, they'd probably see the field sooner unless our lack of LB depth demands their contribution. in a 4-3 under Shannon and Richt, guys like Fanney and Rolando McClain would have their hands in the dirt at the snap. i get the feel that Saban ordinarily wants his lightest LB at around 230.

It's a different scheme..what they would do has no bearing.

 

[imported_Porter]

It should be mentioned, and I don't think it has been, that Chris Jordan and Mark Barron will eventually be LB's at Alabama.

some indeed have predicted this. under Shannon and Richt, they'd probably see the field sooner unless our lack of LB depth demands their contribution. in a 4-3 under Shannon and Richt, guys like Fanney and Rolando McClain would have their hands in the dirt at the snap. i get the feel that Saban ordinarily wants his lightest LB at around 230.

I think after this year, and for parts of this season, McClain will be at Jack. That is his ultimate destination IMO, and he'll thrive in that DE/LB role.

 

[TerryP]

It should be mentioned, and I don't think it has been, that Chris Jordan and Mark Barron will eventually be LB's at Alabama.

some indeed have predicted this. under Shannon and Richt, they'd probably see the field sooner unless our lack of LB depth demands their contribution. in a 4-3 under Shannon and Richt, guys like Fanney and Rolando McClain would have their hands in the dirt at the snap. i get the feel that Saban ordinarily wants his lightest LB at around 230.

I think after this year, and for parts of this season, McClain will be at Jack. That is his ultimate destination IMO, and he'll thrive in that DE/LB role.

Ultimately I see that as well. How much this season is going to be interesting to watch. We'll need two guys, probably frosh, to take over the middle with one of them able to call the defensive sets. IF we see that this year I'm thinking that'll mean 3 of the 4 LB's are true frosh.

 

[musso]

It should be mentioned, and I don't think it has been, that Chris Jordan and Mark Barron will eventually be LB's at Alabama.

some indeed have predicted this. under Shannon and Richt, they'd probably see the field sooner unless our lack of LB depth demands their contribution. in a 4-3 under Shannon and Richt, guys like Fanney and Rolando McClain would have their hands in the dirt at the snap. i get the feel that Saban ordinarily wants his lightest LB at around 230.

It's a different scheme..what they would do has no bearing.

but the 4-3 scheme ultimately utilizes a lighter/smaller front seven, given the ideal weights.

if you have two DTs manning the center of the OL say at 280ish, you can adequately deal with the defensive interior, particularly against a spread option with only one back next to the QB. with no fullback to contend with, a 4-3 D coordinator would be free to opt out of using his heavier MLB (at say 240 lbs). that way, according to Saban's standards, this D coordinator might be using a 2-5 which would be in most cases much faster and responsive to the misdirection and one-on-one matchups created by the spread option. again, i don't want to get bogged down with terminology such as 3-4 or 4-3 since the original focus of this thread (and my point) was size differential between Saban's defensive front and that of the other coaches, who happen to use a more traditional 4-3.

 

[bamatommy]

Defense is chemistry too not just size and speed. Also just because one person solves a problem one way doesn't mean there are not other solutions.

Agreed.

 

[TerryP]

can i keep both? i'd keep the 210 pound at LB (or if he's fast and agile enough at safety) and put the 235 pound guy at DE in a 4-3 against the spread. again, the key quote i shared from the latest ESPN article is:

Last comment tonight on this thread tonight.

UF, a spread team, is projected to have 5 OLmen at over 300 pounds. Put a 235lb DE against that kind of tackle leads to one thing. Pancakes.

 

[Guest]

can i keep both? i'd keep the 210 pound at LB (or if he's fast and agile enough at safety) and put the 235 pound guy at DE in a 4-3 against the spread. again, the key quote i shared from the latest ESPN article is:

Last comment tonight on this thread tonight.

UF, a spread team, is projected to have 5 OLmen at over 300 pounds. Put a 235lb DE against that kind of tackle leads to one thing. Pancakes.

It also means your LBs are getting flattened and not able to do their job if you do not have some big guys to occupy the OL.

 

[musso]

can i keep both? i'd keep the 210 pound at LB (or if he's fast and agile enough at safety) and put the 235 pound guy at DE in a 4-3 against the spread. again, the key quote i shared from the latest ESPN article is:

Last comment tonight on this thread tonight.

UF, a spread team, is projected to have 5 OLmen at over 300 pounds. Put a 235lb DE against that kind of tackle leads to one thing. Pancakes.

ok, so you thing 235 is too light. would a 242 pound DE tickle your fancy?

first of all, i was simply working with the two weights provided in Bo's hypothetical to illustrate that you wouldn't necessarily have to choose one or the other so long as you used them properly. most would admit that a 235 pound DE is pushing it, but if you read the last ESPN article i hyperlinked you'll see a photo of USF DE George Selvie. USF has shut down WVU's offense, one of the nation's most prolific spread attacks, for two consecutive seasons. one of the nation's most successful DEs from last season and an key factor in USF's defensive dominance of WVU's offense was George Selvie who was listed at only 242 lbs. also worth noting is that he garnered 14.5 sacks last season.

in response to your comment about UF's 300 pound OL pancaking opposing 235 DEs, consider these numbers.

* here were the weights of last year's WVU OL: 295, 275, 320, 280, 285.

* here were the weights of last year's USF 2 deep DL: 249, 242, 312, 264, 237, 230, 266, 241

i watched this great game last year - i don't recall too many WVU pancakes. furthermore, i don't recall too many Ohio St. pancakes against Florida two years ago even though the OSU OL significantly outweighed UF's DL. however i do remember OSU QB Troy Smith under pressure all night and UF's DL controlling the LOS. i even remember a key UF defensive stop on a desperate OSU 4th and inches.

terry, i don't know how you can continue to deny the merits of the evidence i keep providing in this thread of the utility of lighter defensive personel. now you can say you believe in the superiority in the scheme and strategy of Saban's defense, but i don't know how you can say that all these other high profile coaches don't know what they are doing. has ESPN's Mark Schlabach really gone off the deep end when he claims that today's coaches are searching for 275 pound DTs and 250 pound DEs? has he not done his research on this article? you might have full confidence in Saban's plan, but you can't deny the clear success that smaller and faster D fronts are having against spread offenses and the resulting current trend in college football defensive recruiting.

as for me, i just think that Saban's philosophy puts a premium on him being able to attract only the very best recruits, nothing less. the other approach used by Richt, Shannon, and others seems more flexible and puts less pressure on recruiting.

 

[Swamptick]

can i keep both? i'd keep the 210 pound at LB (or if he's fast and agile enough at safety) and put the 235 pound guy at DE in a 4-3 against the spread. again, the key quote i shared from the latest ESPN article is:

Last comment tonight on this thread tonight.

UF, a spread team, is projected to have 5 OLmen at over 300 pounds. Put a 235lb DE against that kind of tackle leads to one thing. Pancakes.

Mmmmm. Pancackes.

 

[musso]

ATTN: TerryP

ESPN keeps churning out more and more articles featuring coaches who agree with me on this issue Terry. To me it's as plain as day.

[If you're able to locate our previous thread and merge this one with it please do so. I couldn't find it.]

ESPN: defending fast-tempo offenses

...some coaches believe the new offensive thinking will change the way that coaches recruit defenders.

"You got to be able to play in space, with guys who can run," UCLA defensive coordinator DeWayne Walker said.

Oklahoma head coach Bob Stoops buttressed Walker's point.

"The biggest issue is your speed on the field on defense," Stoops said. "And athleticism, guys that can play in space, tackle in space, cover, pressure. … I think you're going to see quicker and lighter linebackers overall so you have to try and match their speed."

ESPN: fast-tempo offenses are the trend

The spread stresses defenses by forcing them to cover the entire field. "Tempo" -- in the coaching argot it is understood that tempo is fast -- forces the defense to cover an increasing amount of real estate in less time.

Plays are called faster. Offenses rush to the line of scrimmage. Defenses struggle to line up correctly. Tempo leaves no time for a huddle. It leaves no time for much of anything.

"There's a saying in sport that fatigue makes cowards of all men," Auburn offensive coordinator Tony Franklin said. "I think it's the most true thing in all of sports."

The saying is the foundation of the offense that Franklin has installed at Auburn since arriving in December 2007 after two seasons at Troy. The Tigers averaged 67 plays per game in the regular season.

Auburn ran 90 plays and gained 423 yards in its 23-20 overtime defeat of Clemson in the Chick-Fil-A Bowl. On a few plays, Bosley said, some Clemson linemen didn't -- couldn't -- get in their stances.

"You can be frisky and everything, but the moment you reach fatigue, it doesn't matter. You're dying," Franklin said. "Kind of like the fight with [George] Foreman and [Muhammad] Ali, where Ali set back on the ropes for seven or eight rounds and took the beating. Then all of a sudden, Foreman was dead. His arms were gone, and he [Ali] knocks him out. That's kind of the philosophy of this thing. Eventually, fatigue will set in. Even though it might set in on you, too, because you're playing at such [a] fast tempo, you know what you're doing and they don't.

Bosley, the Auburn center, played last season at 291 pounds. He began August workouts this week at 278. He said he feels quicker and stronger.

 

[Guest]

Bosley and their two guards are also injured from the first scrimmage.

None of this is new stuff. That is why you have big guys up front take up space and let the LB's run free.

A trend is a trend and pros usually do not like qb's, rb's or lineman from a spread offense. Wish I could find that SI article where they were talking to pro scouts and how Tebow etc will have to forget everything they learned in college to make it in the pro's. Why because the spread will never work there. They would be carting qb's out on a stretcher. You can bet that you will see less and less Aubrun players being drafted early on. A trend is a trend,much like fashion. Sure you need speed and I watched UGA demolish an offense run by a master of the spread. Even Urban has learned you need some ball control in the SEC..

Just MHO and from what I have seen out of our recruits, workouts and future players we will have speed, instinct at skill positions and solid tacklers.

I know why I cannot find the article...it is from this weeks print with UGA on the cover.

 

[TerryP]

It's funny you bring this up again this morning Musso. Yesterday, I kid you not, I was having a conversation with a former DB on this very subject.

As a matter of fact, I also talked with StepL (who happens to also be a former DB) about this subject and brought up your first and second thread about his very subject.

My opinion hasn't changed and I've voiced the reasons behind why I feel the way I do several times.

Now, as to your latest two links, what Tony Franklin says carries no weight in the college football circles. Sure, high school coaches have listened to him, but you won't find a DC that "fears" what he's going to bring to the field.

I will comment on what Stoops said because I do respect his ability with defenses.

Trust me, this is going to be short and sweet....

To quote Stoops in this article...

The biggest issue is your speed on the field on defense

We have that even if our players are larger than what Franklin is recruiting.

The ONLY time someone should mention "he runs a 4.5" is if we have linebackers running with them, in a straight line, for 40 yards and then they MAY be .1 or .2 seconds faster which means they still can be tackled.

Fact is this.

Franklin is recruiting Hawaii type players.

Going back to your quoted post about the number of plays per game...

Hawaii ran 75 plays versus Georgia.
Georgia ran 67.
41-10 Georgia.

We run a 3-4 BASE defense. But, I find myself repeating things that have been said in this very thread...

 

[Ump]

Basically what Musso is saying is that he and some of the coaches in the SEC knows more about defense and who to recruit than Saban, without any concept of better conditioning with better skill sets and other intangables. Please I for one find this laughable! I'll take Saban for 500 Alex! :lol: :roll:

 

[pimpsahoy]

People act like the spread is some new revolutionary offense that was invented about 3 years ago.

June Jones is the best example. In the early 90's he was the OC for Jerry Glanville with the Atlanta Falcons. The offense he installed was the Run and Shoot. He obviously has mad a few adjustments here and there but basically still runs the same system. Now it is known as the Spread.

I see plenty of offense being called "Spread" offense that are basically the same thing that Steve Spurrier brought to Florida.

The Colts also use a similar system that as plenty of spread principles. Bill Belichick runs a prototypical 3-4 defense and has had plenty of success against Manning and the Colts.

The height/weight, speed... stuff has been covered ad nauseam but the only real difference between the 3-4 and 4-3 is that the 4-3 is a defense that has more specialists than the 3-4. The 3-4 is dependent on players being versatile.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Musso- What is a team that goes "lighter and faster" across the board going to do when they face an offense that has 300+ lb offensive linemen and doesn't run a full fledge spread option? I tell what they're going to do. They're going to get their ass kicked all over the field.

Not every team in the SEC runs the spread option and there will be teams that odds are never will. They might run aspects of it but I doubt Miss. St, Ole Miss, LSU, Georgia and Tennessee will ever just junk the power running game and go to a full fledge spread offense. It is not the nature of the SEC and if a team makes that drastic of a change on defense to "downsized", "faster" players the consequence is they're going to get bulldozed by teams that still implement power running games.

You defense the spread by discipline and fundamentals not by speed and quickness. Most top notch athletes getting recruited in the SEC are fast. The difference in speed you're talking about between a 230 lb LB compared to 250 lb LB isn't so much that it will make that much difference. The key is having players that are disciplined enough to not get out of position and players that make good open field tackles. The spread isolates one on one tackling and exposes weaknesses in the fundamentals of tackling.

I NEVER NEVER EVER EVER want to go back to small DL or OL AGAIN. Bigger offensive and defensive linemen eventually win out. There are ways to properly defend the spread without making wholesale changes in the size of players you put on the field. You expose your self too much in other areas to make this drastic of a change. I hope Mark Ritche continues to "Downsize" his defense. Because it will eventually cost him.

 

[Guest]

If i'm not mistaken Coach Kines used a lot of 3 man fronts with nickel packages, and look what he did to a first year team trying to run the "spread" or "run and shoot". Granted we had a pretty good LB that made a lot of plays all over the field that year, but i think that the 3-4 with Nickel packages can be consistent in stopping the Spread or Run and shoot offenses.

 

[Guest]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will have no problem defended the Tony Franklin spread, as I have no doubt in my mind that most SEC defenses will have a problem defending it this year. With that out of the way, I have a sort of interesting question for you guys. Roughly, what's our record against teams that use some form of the spread offense?

 

[Guest]

To, too many people are buying into the hype of the spread.....way too many people. It is funny because most of my Aubrun friends hate it and want it gone or are too worried to even talk about it. Yet we have people on a Bama board talking about other coaches...well we are not coached by those others. UGA stayed in a nickle most of the time against spread teams. As do most teams.
As far as what Saban is doing...he has to build depth and get players in before you can judge what they can handle.

Playing takes place on the field, not on paper or talk.

I for one will be glad to see the season start so all the hype over the spread will stop.

 

[TerryP]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will have no problem defended the Tony Franklin spread, as I have no doubt in my mind that most SEC defenses will have a problem defending it this year. With that out of the way, I have a sort of interesting question for you guys. Roughly, what's our record against teams that use some form of the spread offense?

The last few years we've played Tx. Tech, Houston, UF (twice)and Hawaii who ran versions of a spread offense. 4-1.

The most diverse and toughest to defend, in terms of an offensive approach, was Houston.

Colorado spread the field, but it wasn't what I would call a spread offense. Middle Tennessee State ran a version of it, but the closest thing to compare to Franklin's is they were a no-huddle offense. Again, a W. Last year, UT ran some no-huddle. Again, a W.

Utah State? Debatable. But again, a W, twice.

South Florida in 2003 a true spread, no huddle attack. But, yet again, a W.