| FTBL Will Saban's 3-4 work against the spread (merged topics)

[musso]

musso,

did you not read what I posted that Bill Oliver had to say about defending the spread? Do you not think he knows what he's talking about?

As far as the fast smaller guy being more durable than the larger fast guy, I think that is false. If the large fast guy is as well conditioned as the smaller fast guy, the large fast guy will be just as fresh in the 4th quarter as the smaller guy.

sorry, i'm trying to reply to each person.

of course i believe Oliver knows his stuff, but think about what you said he recommended. is he not recommending fielding a lighter defense??? call it what you want, a 3-2-6, 3-3-5, etc. the point is putting lighter players on the field. that is precisely what all these articles advocate.

 

[musso]

Re: Players recruited by Saban for D'

Musso,

Go back and take a look at the offer sheets of our last recruiting class.
The coaches who you are singi ng the praises of offered and heavily recruited the same athletes that we signed.
How do you explain that fact?

first of all, i'm not "singing the praises" of these other coaches. i believe their records and/or reputations speak for themselves.

the fact that our players were recruited by other coaches is irrelevant to the issue at hand. had Stoops, Shannon, Richt, Tubberville, etc. signed some of our players they would have simply played them at different positions, consistent with their stated philosophy of making safties into LBs, LBs into DEs, and DEs into DTs. take Rolando McClain for instance. i believe he would have been placed at DE had he signed with any of the above coaches.

 

[Guest]

But he also recommends having a 3-4 base.

What you've been saying is that you are concerned with Saban's 3-4 defense. What I and others have been trying to tell you is that the 3-4 is the BASE defense. It is shifted into a 3-2-6 or a 3-3-5 when facing spread formations, which is what Oliver says he'd do. Saban did this last year when facing spread offenses.

You've got to have the beef in the SEC at LB. Otherwise, teams that don't run the spread will drive the ball down your throat and kill you. UF and AU are the only teams running a full fledge spread offense in the SEC.

 

[Guest]

What we are saying is basically that you don't change your overall recruiting philosophy to cope with one particular offensive style, since you will also have to defend more traditional styles that would require larger defenders.

DeMico Ryans was definitely an exception, but for the most part I'd want my linebackers to be larger to defdend the power running games so many of our opponents hit us with.

With each subsequent recruiting group we will have more of the depth it takes to cope with whatever we will face on a given week end. The offensive innovations do make it interesting.

I was watching Florida last year against Tennessee. They had Tebow lined up in the gun, with a running back beside him, on his right. They put their H-back in motion and stopped him just between the RG and RT. There was a TE on that side, and a flanker. A bell was ringing in my head as I saw Tebow run off the right side for a first down . This looked just like the single wing my high school team ran. Everything old is new again.

 

[bama1289]

Wow! Musso, you should really consider becoming Bama's next defensive coordinator. Saban is considered a defensive guru, but obviously u know more than he does. I don't know why y'all keep arguing with musso cause ur not gonna convince him that Saban knows what he's doing.

 

[Argo]

Here's a guess at how our 3-3-5 defense would look like....

DE - Bobby Greenwood - 6-5/270
NG - Terrence Cody - 6-5/380
DE - Lorenzo Washington - 6-5/275

LB - Chavis Williams - 6-4/220
LB - Rolando McClain - 6-4/249
LB - Jerrell Harris - 6-3/215

CB - Kareem Jackson - 5-11/192
FS - Rashad Johnson - 6-0/190
SS - Justin Woodall - 6-2/220
NB - Javier Arenas - 5-9/198
CB - Marquis Johnson - 5-11/192

That's not a heavy defensive unit and I think would it do well against a spread offense. The line is a little heavy but it is needed to pressure the QB. McClain behind Cody would stop a lot of draws up the middle while Harris and Williams are fast enough to run down any QB trying to scramble.

I don't see what the concern is about.

 

[TerryP]

Here's a guess at how our 3-3-5 defense would look like....

DE - Bobby Greenwood - 6-5/270
NG - Terrence Cody - 6-5/380
DE - Lorenzo Washington - 6-5/275

LB - Chavis Williams - 6-4/220
LB - Rolando McClain - 6-4/249
LB - Jerrell Harris - 6-3/215

CB - Kareem Jackson - 5-11/192
FS - Rashad Johnson - 6-0/190
SS - Justin Woodall - 6-2/220
NB - Javier Arenas - 5-9/198
CB - Marquis Johnson - 5-11/192

That's not a heavy defensive unit and I think would do well against a spread offense. The line is a little heavy but it is needed to pressure the QB. McClain behind Cody would stop a lot of draws up the middle while Harris and Williams are fast enough to run down any QB trying to scramble.

I don't see what the concern is about.

Replace Marquis with Barron and you have it spot on...Barron, playing the Star.

To start the season I'd bet we see Anders before Jerrell. At least, that's what I'm thinking right now.

 

[Outlaw]

People put wayyyyyy too much stock into 40 times.

Just read the first page and thought I would toss that out there.

 

[musso]

But he also recommends having a 3-4 base.

What you've been saying is that you are concerned with Saban's 3-4 defense. What I and others have been trying to tell you is that the 3-4 is the BASE defense. It is shifted into a 3-2-6 or a 3-3-5 when facing spread formations, which is what Oliver says he'd do. Saban did this last year when facing spread offenses.

You've got to have the beef in the SEC at LB. Otherwise, teams that don't run the spread will drive the ball down your throat and kill you. UF and AU are the only teams running a full fledge spread offense in the SEC.

i guess this thread is getting too long. i've said repeatedly that my critique isn't so much with the scheme as it is with the weights of the players used at some positions. for example, i don't like to think that we are asking LBs 240+ pounds to defend against the spread, nor do i like lining up D-linemen weighing more than say 270 lbs outside of opposing O-guards. let me try to find something else i've already posted earlier in this thread ...

 

[TerryP]

But he also recommends having a 3-4 base.

What you've been saying is that you are concerned with Saban's 3-4 defense. What I and others have been trying to tell you is that the 3-4 is the BASE defense. It is shifted into a 3-2-6 or a 3-3-5 when facing spread formations, which is what Oliver says he'd do. Saban did this last year when facing spread offenses.

You've got to have the beef in the SEC at LB. Otherwise, teams that don't run the spread will drive the ball down your throat and kill you. UF and AU are the only teams running a full fledge spread offense in the SEC.

i guess this thread is getting too long. i've said repeatedly that my critique isn't so much with the scheme as it is with the weights of the players used at some positions. for example, i don't like to think that we are asking LBs 240+ pounds to defend against the spread, nor do i like lining up D-linemen weighing more than say 270 lbs outside of opposing O-guards. let me try to find something else i've already posted earlier in this thread ...

That was answered on the very first page of the thread.

 

[Argo]

Here's a guess at how our 3-3-5 defense would look like....

DE - Bobby Greenwood - 6-5/270
NG - Terrence Cody - 6-5/380
DE - Lorenzo Washington - 6-5/275

LB - Chavis Williams - 6-4/220
LB - Rolando McClain - 6-4/249
LB - Jerrell Harris - 6-3/215

CB - Kareem Jackson - 5-11/192
FS - Rashad Johnson - 6-0/190
SS - Justin Woodall - 6-2/220
NB - Javier Arenas - 5-9/198
CB - Marquis Johnson - 5-11/192

That's not a heavy defensive unit and I think would do well against a spread offense. The line is a little heavy but it is needed to pressure the QB. McClain behind Cody would stop a lot of draws up the middle while Harris and Williams are fast enough to run down any QB trying to scramble.

I don't see what the concern is about.

Replace Marquis with Barron and you have it spot on...Barron, playing the Star.

To start the season I'd bet we see Anders before Jerrell. At least, that's what I'm thinking right now.

I do think Anders will be #1 ahead of Jerrell, but I would expect to see Jerrell in against obvious pass situations.

 

[musso]

Here's a guess at how our 3-3-5 defense would look like....

DE - Bobby Greenwood - 6-5/270
NG - Terrence Cody - 6-5/380
DE - Lorenzo Washington - 6-5/275

LB - Chavis Williams - 6-4/220
LB - Rolando McClain - 6-4/249
LB - Jerrell Harris - 6-3/215

CB - Kareem Jackson - 5-11/192
FS - Rashad Johnson - 6-0/190
SS - Justin Woodall - 6-2/220
NB - Javier Arenas - 5-9/198
CB - Marquis Johnson - 5-11/192

That's not a heavy defensive unit and I think would it do well against a spread offense. The line is a little heavy but it is needed to pressure the QB. McClain behind Cody would stop a lot of draws up the middle while Harris and Williams are fast enough to run down any QB trying to scramble.

I don't see what the concern is about.

well, that's not too bad. are those weights accurate for Greenwood, Washington, and Williams? i would have imagined that they would be heavier than that by now.

i just don't think there's a need at all for a NG or DT over say 290 unless you're in a short yardage situation. of course there are exceptions when you're able to recruit an unusually mobile big man. also, i think a LB over 230 is pushing it too, particularly against a spread offense.

 

[TerryP]

I do think Anders will be #1 ahead of Jerrell, but I would expect to see Jerrell in against obvious pass situations.

Agreed there. Moving inside I would want Hightower in the short yardage downs and right now someone like Higgenbotham or Reamer on those 3rd and long downs.

 

[TerryP]

Here's a guess at how our 3-3-5 defense would look like....

DE - Bobby Greenwood - 6-5/270
NG - Terrence Cody - 6-5/380
DE - Lorenzo Washington - 6-5/275

LB - Chavis Williams - 6-4/220
LB - Rolando McClain - 6-4/249
LB - Jerrell Harris - 6-3/215

CB - Kareem Jackson - 5-11/192
FS - Rashad Johnson - 6-0/190
SS - Justin Woodall - 6-2/220
NB - Javier Arenas - 5-9/198
CB - Marquis Johnson - 5-11/192

That's not a heavy defensive unit and I think would it do well against a spread offense. The line is a little heavy but it is needed to pressure the QB. McClain behind Cody would stop a lot of draws up the middle while Harris and Williams are fast enough to run down any QB trying to scramble.

I don't see what the concern is about.

well, that's not too bad. are those weights accurate for Greenwood, Washington, and Williams? i would have imagined that they would be heavier than that by now.

i just don't think there's a need at all for a NG or DT over say 290 unless you're in a short yardage situation. of course there are exceptions when you're able to recruit an unusually mobile big man. also, i think a LB over 230 is pushing it too, particularly against a spread offense.

Current weights published are not correct.

Again, saying you don't want someone 290 or so in the NT spot of a 3-4 goes directly against what the NT is supposed to do in a 3-4, or 3-3-5, or 3-2-6.

 

[Guest]

If we go "dime" who would the sixth DB be? Lawrence?

 

[TerryP]

If we go "dime" who would the sixth DB be? Lawrence?

In dime, right now it would be Marquis, Barron, Woodall, Johnson, Jackson and Arenas.

 

[musso]

Again, saying you don't want someone 290 or so in the NT spot of a 3-4 goes directly against what the NT is supposed to do in a 3-4, or 3-3-5, or 3-2-6.

if you haven't discerned by now, i'm not a fan of a NT period. i only included "NT" in my previous statement because i'd support a DL lining up over the center only if the offense had no TEs (or H-backs) in the game. in that instance i'd still want him weighing a max of 290 with my DEs lined up opposite the O-tackles and weighing considerably lighter.

 

[Guest]

Again, saying you don't want someone 290 or so in the NT spot of a 3-4 goes directly against what the NT is supposed to do in a 3-4, or 3-3-5, or 3-2-6.

if you haven't discerned by now, i'm not a fan of a NT period. i only included "NT" in my previous statement because i'd support a DL lining up over the center only if the offense had no TEs (or H-backs) in the game. in that instance i'd still want him weighing a max of 290 with my DEs lined up opposite the O-tackles and weighing considerably lighter.

And on OL would blow them away and they would be ineffective and leave an extra blocker or blockers to go after the LB's.

 

[musso]

And on OL would blow them away and they would be ineffective and leave an extra blocker or blockers to go after the LB's.

once again, you need to review this thread. there is plenty of data that easily refutes your claim. furthermore, i challenge you to examine the sizes of most college D-lines. you'll find that the average weight of D-lines is less than the average weight of O-lines.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Musso- What is a team that goes "lighter and faster" across the board going to do when they face an offense that has 300+ lb offensive linemen and doesn't run a full fledge spread option? I tell what they're going to do. They're going to get their ass kicked all over the field.

i can't read the articles for you. Maisel responds to your point ...

Stoops acknowledged that such changes might mean sacrificing some ability to plug up the run.

furthermore, if you look back in this thread i respond to your valid point by making an argument for a 4-3 (or any scheme that utilizes only two DL weighing around 280 placed in the defensive interior).

You defense the spread by discipline and fundamentals not by speed and quickness.

again, read the articles. you disagree with an impressive list of coaches.

The difference in speed you're talking about between a 230 lb LB compared to 250 lb LB isn't so much that it will make that much difference.

i can only say you are badly mistaken. 20 pounds is a HUGE difference, especially in a one-on-one matchup against a lighter ball carrier. again, over the course of a game (and season) the demands on your body are exponentially greater with every additional pound you carry regardless if it is lean muscle mass or adipose tissue.

The spread isolates one on one tackling and exposes weaknesses in the fundamentals of tackling.

yes, but have you ever tried to tackle someone who weighs 20-plus pounds less than you? it's funny how they seem so elusive.

I'm glad you put the Bob Stoops quote because he confirms my point. Going "lighter" across board puts your defense in a position of no flexibility. Sure, you have the ability to get more people around the ball against a team running the spread. But you have no other options when you run across a team that doesn't run the spread and lines up and runs directly at the small DL and LB's.

Not every team is going to go to the kind of spread that will require a team to go "ligter and faster" to the degree being suggested in this article. I understand that some very "impressive" names are on this list but they are responding on how to defend ONE type of offense.

Do you recommend going to smaller and lighter players across the board in the SEC, knowing that there are SEVERAL teams we play on a yearly basis that implement power running games?

I can tell you right now if you put undersized players against Georgia, LSU, Tennessee or a Houston Nutt offense they will line up and run DIRECTLY at your defense, taking away the element of speed and bring the elements of size and power into the equation in which your defense will have no answer for.