| LIFE What about God? Is He or isn’t he?

The Catholics used to believe to could buy your way to heaven. They still appear to believe you can pray the deaf into it. Not sure I would trust anything they push
I have never seen scripture to that effect. I have seen just the opposite. You can participate and have a relationship with God without being a member of a religion. It is more fun with others. I have been a Baptist, Methodist, and Episcopalian. We just fired our Priest over his laziness and trying to control things he is not in charge of. All religions have a business side that is necessary. It is not possible for a Priest to be perfect. No one is. God killed the Egyptian solders chasing after the jews.

The Bible is full of stories and the history of our religion. In the beginning starts the journey of mankind and right there the first confusing concept of creation is not explained. Skeptics say Adam couldn't be the first man because Cain went to another land and married. It is not a flaw. It is just not explained

What I believe is the Bible is a road map of mankind's fall and redemption. May your journey be full of life and redemption. Don't sweat the small stuff
 
What makes the Bible right and other religions wrong? There is no denying that Christians believe they are right just as Muslims do. Each would say the other is going to hell. So why would I believe any of them when there is no actual proof any of them are right?
 
What makes the Bible right and other religions wrong? There is no denying that Christians believe they are right just as Muslims do. Each would say the other is going to hell. So why would I believe any of them when there is no actual proof any of them are right?
The old testament has examples like that but the new testament is about redemption and love with forgiveness.
 
It also says there is no path to God except through Christ, meaning Christianity if the only right religion and everyone else is condemned.
It is a belief of faith not a condemnation of others. Jesus came to earth to save us. It is a path you choose. Life is about choices. We make choices every day. I just try to help you and not condem you. There are extreme religions, bad preachers and Priest just like the rest of the world has thieves and murders.
 
It is a belief of faith not a condemnation of others. Jesus came to earth to save us. It is a path you choose. Life is about choices. We make choices every day. I just try to help you and not condem you. There are extreme religions, bad preachers and Priest just like the rest of the world has thieves and murders.
Except it says that you can only get to God through him. That is not just a belief. It means anyone not coming through Christ is incapable of getting to God and therefore Christianity if the only correct religion. You can't pretend that saying be Christian or never see God isn't condemning anyone not Christian.
 
The message is exactly what you're preacher says, which is the biggest issue.

Talking to a preacher is often what convinces someone to become an atheist in reality.

Edit:. At this point you have to prove the whole Bible is accurate as opposed to anyone proving any part of it is wrong. Inability to do so means the whole basis of your religion is not factual but just your belief
No religion has never been about proof … it’s about faith. And as Christians we hold to the belief that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen”. Hebrews 11:1. All of the Bible centers on faith … not on proving God exists. You said you believe in God just not in any religion … so you too believe by faith. I don’t feel superior to you or anyone else. I do feel humble and thankful for my faith though. God bless!
 
Except it says that you can only get to God through him. That is not just a belief. It means anyone not coming through Christ is incapable of getting to God and therefore Christianity if the only correct religion. You can't pretend that saying be Christian or never see God isn't condemning anyone not Christian.
Don't know if you are right or wrong. Jesus was a real person sent to earth to save us from our sins. Going thru him is a choice you make. I made that choice years ago because I was taught that choice not told I would be condemned if I didn't make that choice. You make a choice when you believe an atheist or agnostic is right and christians are wrong. Logically there is no proof of any God. There is historical proof of Jesus. Men wrote the words in the bible and millions believe. You will know the truth at your death. We could be wrong and no God exist. Our lives wasted with no purpose. This is just a choice you make to have faith. It comforts me to have it and It guides me in many ways.
 
So, as long as we all agree that the Bible could all be lies or not and there is no proof of it at all then I have nothing more to say here. We definitely won't agree as to the validity of anything men wrote down.
lie is a word we all use. You lie when you compliment that little fat ugly baby you see. No one is flawless but the redemption you feel when you are saved is a comforting feeling. The rest of micromanagement of the Bible just doesn't matter.
 
I didn’t know exactly how to title this thread, so hopefully it will suffice for all who are interested.

So, @ElephantStomp, as we mentioned in the COVID thread, how is it that you came to doubt what you previously believed? As for me, It is impossible that God does not exist. Again, I’m sincerely interested in that process that led you to where you are now.

an aside, have patience with me regarding responses. I’ll be out of the country for a few days, and I‘m not sure what the status of wifi will be.

I look forward to the discussion.
This is going to be long and I apologize ahead of time. I’ll try to keep it short, so you’re not having to read a novel.


For 7 years I was heavily involved in a local church (my then wife got me to start going, the Pastor is from Alabama and is a huge fan, I graduated from UA and am obviously a Baja fan, so we had that in common and she used that to get me there), after a bit I felt I was called to be a Preacher, so I was asked by our state Southern baptist convention to come share my testimony at the state convention, so I went and shared it and afterwards my pastor shared with everybody (Pastors, pastor’s wives, youth pastors, etc) about my feeling God was calling me to be a Pastor and several of them invited me to student Pastor for them, but I already had a student Pastor position. There’s more to my background, but I’ll save you from that.

While I was student pastoring I was also attending college (was going for my Masters in Astrophysics), but that didn’t play a roll in my losing faith.

I started losing faith because almost every sermon my Pastor would have some sort anti-gay message (I have a lesbian cousin), then I approached my Pastor about wanting to start an adoption ministry (I have always had a passion for orphans and helping people navigate the adoption process and he shut me down then my then wife started having medical issues and she had a serious operation and nobody from the church even texted let alone stop to visit (that really angered me, then I realized church wasn’t a hospital for the lost and broken, but rather a country club for the saved and just decided one day to resign my position at the church and finished school. There’s more, but I think I’ve bored you enough with this novel
 
@bcracker sorry about your church that let you down. The Bible is full of examples like that. When Moses came down and found his people worshiping fake idols. When Jesus threw out the money changers from the church. Many churches have broken up because of politics. Many have left a religion because of some Karen's wishes. I too left the Baptist church because of a preacher that promised me a decon position because of my family history. Many years later I am in an Episcopal chapel that tolerates all and raises lots of money for the local community. There are mixed or blended members. More democrats than I would like to see but we get along and keep politics at bay. Another member says they just don't know any better because they don't sign checks on the front. Just sign the back. We have strait, lesbien, or gays, blacks, white poor and rich. Way too many Auburn fans but we get along just fine. All churches are social clubs but find one that does more good than bad and you will be satisfied.
 
It also says there is no path to God except through Christ, meaning Christianity if the only right religion and everyone else is condemned.

That is correct. Christ was the “curtain call” of the old order so to speak. Gone were the burdens of the laws and oral traditions of judaism and through his blood sacrifice we obtained a personal connection to GOD. Christian’s today suffer from the “itching ears” doctrines of numerous pulpit pimps that preach prosperity and tolerance. Christianity has no room judaism or islam as neither are relevant except for possible prophetic reasons. Many holy books were tossed out by Catholics and King James. Going back to the first century after the resurrection and digging in the early Patriarchs is something I have been meaning to do but have yet to dive in. The Babylonian Talmud runs a close second.
 
@bcracker sorry about your church that let you down. The Bible is full of examples like that. When Moses came down and found his people worshiping fake idols. When Jesus threw out the money changers from the church. Many churches have broken up because of politics. Many have left a religion because of some Karen's wishes. I too left the Baptist church because of a preacher that promised me a decon position because of my family history. Many years later I am in an Episcopal chapel that tolerates all and raises lots of money for the local community. There are mixed or blended members. More democrats than I would like to see but we get along and keep politics at bay. Another member says they just don't know any better because they don't sign checks on the front. Just sign the back. We have strait, lesbien, or gays, blacks, white poor and rich. Way too many Auburn fans but we get along just fine. All churches are social clubs but find one that does more good than bad and you will be satisfied.

I'm a happy Episcopalian, too. I'm not a cradle Episcopalian though. I escaped the clutches of the Southern Baptist Church before I left Bama (St. Matthias on Skyland is a lovely church!). There's no screaming, yelling, playing on your emotions. We worship with dignity. We recognize all are welcome, no exceptions. I've learned it's easier to keep one's faith when you're not constantly being told you're going to hell for every. single. little. thing. you. do.
 
This is going to be long and I apologize ahead of time. I’ll try to keep it short, so you’re not having to read a novel.


For 7 years I was heavily involved in a local church (my then wife got me to start going, the Pastor is from Alabama and is a huge fan, I graduated from UA and am obviously a Baja fan, so we had that in common and she used that to get me there), after a bit I felt I was called to be a Preacher, so I was asked by our state Southern baptist convention to come share my testimony at the state convention, so I went and shared it and afterwards my pastor shared with everybody (Pastors, pastor’s wives, youth pastors, etc) about my feeling God was calling me to be a Pastor and several of them invited me to student Pastor for them, but I already had a student Pastor position. There’s more to my background, but I’ll save you from that.

While I was student pastoring I was also attending college (was going for my Masters in Astrophysics), but that didn’t play a roll in my losing faith.

I started losing faith because almost every sermon my Pastor would have some sort anti-gay message (I have a lesbian cousin), then I approached my Pastor about wanting to start an adoption ministry (I have always had a passion for orphans and helping people navigate the adoption process and he shut me down then my then wife started having medical issues and she had a serious operation and nobody from the church even texted let alone stop to visit (that really angered me, then I realized church wasn’t a hospital for the lost and broken, but rather a country club for the saved and just decided one day to resign my position at the church and finished school. There’s more, but I think I’ve bored you enough with this novel
I can appreciate the discouragement you experienced with the examples you provided about uncaring "brethren." When those who claim to love the Lord forget us during our hour of need or act like the Devil, our faith can indeed be rattled. You remind me of the time when a brother screamed at me for turning down the thermostat in the church building. I had a lot of respect for this man, and I couldn't understand why a mature Christian would scream at me for anything, much less for just trying to make the building a little cooler. It was a small thing, comparatively speaking, but it affected me deeply. And I remember the time when a preacher I respected, a man who had helped my understanding of the gospel deeper than nearly anyone in my life, was exposed as a serial adulterer.

And I have experienced the B-side of that forty-five as well. As one example, my wife recently had to have several surgeries for cancer, and every night she spent in the hospital, and there were several, a lady from church stayed with her, because she knew I couldn't be there, because I had to be at home to care for our invalid son. She didn't ask. She just showed up with an overnight bag and told me to go home. That was a tremendous relief for me knowing my wife was being comforted at a very dark period in her life by someone who loved her when I couldn't be there. I am so thankful to God for that good sister in Christ and what she did for my family.

And while we're listening to the B-side, think about all that Jesus did. He left the glory of heaven to walk in the muck and the mire of this world. He lived His entire life doing nothing but good. As he went about preaching repentance and the coming kingdom, he was hounded every step of the way. After three years of simply speaking truth, the most innocent man to ever walk this earth was nailed to a tree, while the very ones He was trying to save were baying for His blood. He died in agony, was buried, and rose again. Finally, he ascended back into heaven where he received glory and dominion, and there he serves as our High Priest, interceding for us before the throne of God, all to pave the way for me and you to spend eternity with Him in glory. That's pretty heavy stuff when you get your mind wrapped around it, wouldn't you agree?

And think of the jewels He left us to ponder until then:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

"Peace, I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid."

"Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

"Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me." Listen to it! "In my father's house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And If I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

and that's just of few, as you know.

Paul said, "God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

I leave you with this, my friend, and I hope you take it in the spirit it's given: considering all that He did for you, are you sure it's a wise thing to reject Him just because some among those who claim to love Him don't always act like he did?
 
This is going to be long and I apologize ahead of time. I’ll try to keep it short, so you’re not having to read a novel.


For 7 years I was heavily involved in a local church (my then wife got me to start going, the Pastor is from Alabama and is a huge fan, I graduated from UA and am obviously a Baja fan, so we had that in common and she used that to get me there), after a bit I felt I was called to be a Preacher, so I was asked by our state Southern baptist convention to come share my testimony at the state convention, so I went and shared it and afterwards my pastor shared with everybody (Pastors, pastor’s wives, youth pastors, etc) about my feeling God was calling me to be a Pastor and several of them invited me to student Pastor for them, but I already had a student Pastor position. There’s more to my background, but I’ll save you from that.

While I was student pastoring I was also attending college (was going for my Masters in Astrophysics), but that didn’t play a roll in my losing faith.

I started losing faith because almost every sermon my Pastor would have some sort anti-gay message (I have a lesbian cousin), then I approached my Pastor about wanting to start an adoption ministry (I have always had a passion for orphans and helping people navigate the adoption process and he shut me down then my then wife started having medical issues and she had a serious operation and nobody from the church even texted let alone stop to visit (that really angered me, then I realized church wasn’t a hospital for the lost and broken, but rather a country club for the saved and just decided one day to resign my position at the church and finished school. There’s more, but I think I’ve bored you enough with this novel
There were some life events that “proved to me” that GOD was a man made idea. I was 20 and in the Navy living the libertine lifestyle as hard as I could. Fast forward 9 or 10 years and I had the most frightening, profound experience late one night that reset my theological compass. Several churches and I’m feeling the call as well. A change of area of the state and a couple of churches disabused me of the calling. I was still in church every time the doors opened and one Sunday morning the preacher delivered a rousing, inspirational message but he said something about an upcoming service that disturbed me. I called the church several times before I got an appointment to speak with the pastor approx 2 weeks from the call. I met the pastor and I brought up my issue theologically and supported the issue with relevant scripture. His reply was basically, “That’s just the way that everyone does it.” That point being one of the key items that the “rousing, inspirational” sermon preached against. Gobsmacked would probably describe the look that I’m sure he saw in my face because his smiling demeanor changed.
I rose and informed him that as there are 2 or 3K there any given Sunday, me and my family wouldn’t be missed. You are a hypocrite.
I turned my back on churches not GOD. I think that your issue with Christianity could be similar in nature.
If Caesar taxes the population into near poverty and churches are tax free, the temples become part and parcel of the government.
We are exhorted to seek HIS face and call on HIS name not a building, denomination, so called saints, or anything man made. Please understand that I’m not trying to antagonize you but I see similarities between both of our journeys, we just took diverging paths at the moment of choosing. The good news is nothing is final yet and I will pray unceasing that GOD moves in your life.

PS- coincidental or not within a couple of years the pastor came down with a disease and lost his ministry. Took him several years but he recovered and has an online ministry now.
 
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What makes the Bible right and other religions wrong? There is no denying that Christians believe they are right just as Muslims do. Each would say the other is going to hell. So why would I believe any of them when there is no actual proof any of them are right?
It is God who makes "the Bible right and other religions wrong." It is He who said, "I am the way the, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:5). It is He who said through Peter, "there is salvation in on one else, for there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved." My friend if you or anyone desires to live eternally, in a state free from the burdens characteristic of this life, it will happen only in and through the Lord Jesus. Muhammed will not get you there. The Hindu gods will not get you there. Budda will not get you there, nor any other philosophy of man. If people are relying on these or other philosophies for salvation, paradise, enlightenment or whatever, they will fail in their efforts.
It also says there is no path to God except through Christ, meaning Christianity if the only right religion and everyone else is condemned.
Again, Jesus says, "I am THE WAY, the Truth, and the Life..." Since he is THE WAY, there are no other paths to God. He is the only way. [Caps are for emphasis. Not yelling here}].
Except it says that you can only get to God through him. That is not just a belief. It means anyone not coming through Christ is incapable of getting to God and therefore Christianity if the only correct religion. You can't pretend that saying be Christian or never see God isn't condemning anyone not Christian.
Condemnation is the prerogative of God. Christians condemn no one, at least not in any significant way. But speaking as the Bible speaks, or repeating what God says, "Whoever believes in him is not CONDEMNED, but whoever does not believe is CONDEMNED already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18).

God has "given us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us to His own glory and excellence" (2 Pet. 1:3). God has revealed truth and when people hear the truth and reject it, they effectually condemn themselves.

No one will stand before God in the judgement with an excuse for rejecting the religion of Christ.

It has been asked by many, "If God has revealed truth, why isn't it readily apparent to everyone?' The reason: "and this is the judgement, the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true, comes to the light..."

Regarding God's word, David said, "The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple" (Psa. 119:130).

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life" (John 8:12).

People reject Jesus (the Bible, the word of God, the gospel, etc.) because they do not like what he says.
So, as long as we all agree that the Bible could all be lies or not and there is no proof of it at all then I have nothing more to say here. We definitely won't agree as to the validity of anything men wrote down.

No proof of the Bible? What about the eyewitnesses to it all? Are you saying the apostles were all lying? Are you saying they all died horrible deaths for a lie?

What about Paul? Here is a man who went from "breathing out slaughter" against the saints, and the significance of the word "breathing out" in the Greek is that the persecution of Christians was his life; it's what got him up in the and put the spring in His step. He loved what he was doing. He went from that to being a champion for the cause of Christ. And he gave up fame and riches and the "good life" to walk with Him.

He said of this choice, "Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ (Phil. 3:8).

Did Paul live a lie? Are you saying he died for something that had "no proof"? And please understand, he was no hick; he was a highly educated man.

Paul said that he did not receive the message he preached from men but through a "revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal. 2:2) Was he lying when he said that?

Peter, another apostle, said, "no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Pet. 1:21). Was he lying?

The Bible claims to be inspired of God, not in the sense Willie S. was inspired, but in the sense that men who recorded scripture were guided by the Spirit of God to write what they wrote, in order to ensure inerrancy. Is it all a lie?

What about fulfilled prophecy as proof? Read Isaiah 53 and see it's fulfillment in Christ Jesus, as just one example, and know that the fulfillment of the predictions in this passage in just one person apart from God is an impossibility.

We could go on and on about the proof of God's word, but we'll forgo for the moment.

I will leave you with this regarding God's existence and unbelievers, and it's from Paul, who, again, claimed to have received his message from Jesus Christ, "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:19-20).
 
Your argument is that the Bible is right because the Bible says so. Not a very good argument at all.
There is nothing in this world that is 100% right. The bible is scripture written by men inspired from God. I like to read parts of it for inspiration and guidance in my life. There is no good argument. There is only hope and faith.
 
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