🧑‍🤝‍🧑 / 🏡 What about God? Is He or isn’t he?

[rocknthefreeworld]

Kind of shitty to tell people they are going to hell based on that.

 

[RollllTide!]

Kind of shitty to tell people they are going to hell based on that.

Telling people they are going to hell ain't being Christian. Only God has that judgment.

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

Telling people they are going to hell ain't being Christian. Only God has that judgment.

That is a cop out. You can't say the only way to God is through Jesus then pretend that you aren't saying anyone not Christian is going to Hell.

 

[RollllTide!]

That is a cop out. You can't say the only way to God is through Jesus then pretend that you aren't saying anyone not Christian is going to Hell.

Not a cop out. I am not a judge of anyone. Some people do bad things but we all end up in the same place. I don't know if an atheist or non christian is going to hell. It is a hard concept for me to believe that murders, child molesters and others can be saved but the bible says it is so. A cop out is using parts of the bible to reject religion. It ain't science. Who knows we may just simply die and forever be in the dark, but I have faith and hope that we are not fools to believe.

 

[bcracker]

Your argument is that the Bible is right because the Bible says so. Not a very good argument at all.

I asked you about the eye witnesses. I also asked you about fulfilled prophecy. How is that an argument based on the “bible is right because the bible says so”?

 

[bcracker]

Kind of shitty to tell people they are going to hell based on that.

Why?

 

[Davestwin]

This is going to be long and I apologize ahead of time. I’ll try to keep it short, so you’re not having to read a novel.


For 7 years I was heavily involved in a local church (my then wife got me to start going, the Pastor is from Alabama and is a huge fan, I graduated from UA and am obviously a Baja fan, so we had that in common and she used that to get me there), after a bit I felt I was called to be a Preacher, so I was asked by our state Southern baptist convention to come share my testimony at the state convention, so I went and shared it and afterwards my pastor shared with everybody (Pastors, pastor’s wives, youth pastors, etc) about my feeling God was calling me to be a Pastor and several of them invited me to student Pastor for them, but I already had a student Pastor position. There’s more to my background, but I’ll save you from that.

While I was student pastoring I was also attending college (was going for my Masters in Astrophysics), but that didn’t play a roll in my losing faith.

I started losing faith because almost every sermon my Pastor would have some sort anti-gay message (I have a lesbian cousin), then I approached my Pastor about wanting to start an adoption ministry (I have always had a passion for orphans and helping people navigate the adoption process and he shut me down then my then wife started having medical issues and she had a serious operation and nobody from the church even texted let alone stop to visit (that really angered me, then I realized church wasn’t a hospital for the lost and broken, but rather a country club for the saved and just decided one day to resign my position at the church and finished school. There’s more, but I think I’ve bored you enough with this novel

I’m sorry your church treated you so poorly … truly. You lost faith in the people from that church which you allowed to jade you towards all churches. That’s easy to do and it’s why we have an obligation as Christians to be the hands and feet of Christ ... to do His work. Now, all interactions involving people in social settings are social in nature but that doesn’t mean church is supposed to be a social club with all the negative connotations that go with it. The fact yours was and it drove you away should sadden all Christians. I pray one day you happen upon a church that lives for Christ. It won’t be perfect because it will be made up of fallen men and women … but maybe you’ll see the work they do draws you back.

 

[64Tide]

The Pope has proposed a One World Religion, Chrislam. Unifies Christians and Muslims, maybe even Judaism. A search will tell you that the building will open in 2022, located in the Middle East. So now you've got the Pope himself saying there's multiple ways to God! Many will fall for this lie. There is only one way to God, through His son Jesus Christ.

 

[XXL TideFan]

The Pope has proposed a One World Religion, Chrislam. Unifies Christians and Muslims, maybe even Judaism. A search will tell you that the building will open in 2022, located in the Middle East. So now you've got the Pope himself saying there's multiple ways to God! Many will fall for this lie. There is only one way to God, through His son Jesus Christ.

This pope is truly special.

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

I asked you about the eye witnesses. I also asked you about fulfilled prophecy. How is that an argument based on the “bible is right because the bible says so”?

Because everything you use as an argument is just stuff written in the Bible by people. The Koran was written by people as were tons of other religious books that say they are right. Your faith is proof of nothing. Your eyewitnesses have nothing to prove they actually saw anything.

Why?

You can't even prove that the book is right and the one true correct book other than your own faith yet you determine who goes to heaven or hell based on it. That's shitty.

 

[bcracker]

The witnesses have their unimpeachable and corroborated testimony to prove what they saw; they are the type of witnesses attorneys salivate for, and you dismiss them simply with a wave of your hand? Are you sure you’re comfortable with that, because even unbelieving scholars don’t take that road?

Again I ask you, were they all lying? Are you saying they all got together and dreamed up this fantastic story, and then they spread out through world, each going in a different direction, telling everyone who would listen the same lie, living had-ro-mouth for decades, not one of them changing even one detail of the lie, and then they all died horrible deaths for the lie? Is that how it went down in your mind? Please let is know.

By the way, one person wrote the Koran. There were forty writers of the Bible.

You continue to say telling someone who is lost that they will go to hell if they persist is “shitty.” By what standard do you label such as “shitty”? You don’t use the bible for your standard for thus labeling the brimstone hurlers, so what do you base your assertion on?

I can’t prove the Bible’s right? How about this:
Genesis 8:22 (ESV) While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.” Is the Bible correct here?

 

[bama alum]

The Pope has proposed a One World Religion, Chrislam. Unifies Christians and Muslims, maybe even Judaism. A search will tell you that the building will open in 2022, located in the Middle East. So now you've got the Pope himself saying there's multiple ways to God! Many will fall for this lie. There is only one way to God, through His son Jesus Christ.

I would love to see a link to this story.

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

The witnesses have their unimpeachable and corroborated testimony to prove what they saw; they are the type of witnesses attorneys salivate for, and you dismiss them simply with a wave of your hand? Are you sure you’re comfortable with that, because even unbelieving scholars don’t take that road?

Again I ask you, were they all lying? Are you saying they all got together and dreamed up this fantastic story, and then they spread out through world, each going in a different direction, telling everyone who would listen the same lie, living had-ro-mouth for decades, not one of them changing even one detail of the lie, and then they all died horrible deaths for the lie? Is that how it went down in your mind? Please let is know.

By the way, one person wrote the Koran. There were forty writers of the Bible.

You continue to say telling someone who is lost that they will go to hell if they persist is “shitty.” By what standard do you label such as “shitty”? You don’t use the bible for your standard for thus labeling the brimstone hurlers, so what do you base your assertion on?

I can’t prove the Bible’s right? How about this:
Genesis 8:22 (ESV) While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.” Is the Bible correct here?

Your witnesses propose to write about things they did not witness as if they were fact. Very little of the Old Testament was first hand and none of the disciples were at the birth. They absolutely are not reliable as to the divinity of Jesus or the circumstances of his birth. I would actually say they are flat lying about it to make him appear to satisfy a prophecy.

Edit. I should also point out that eyewitness testimony use often the most unreliable testimony of all

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

I apologize if it seems I am being flippant about this. Let me go further in depth. The eyewitnesses in question report a lot of hearsay which is not corroborated by any actual evidence and which they were not even saying they were present to witness. The historical record shows that Jesus probably did exist and was a preacher around 20 AD. He may or may not have been executed by the Romans. There is no actual proof that the person named as the writer is the actual writer of any of the Gospels, just faith and tradition. The generally accepted timeline is that these were anonymously written in the name of the particular apostle from oral traditions of the time. The oldest existing copy of any piece of any of them is a good 150-250 years after the fact. So, once you begin talking about eyewitnesses as proof you are going to have to corroborate that with other fact. The few Roman mentions of Jesus were way after the fact and are not corroborated with any evidence from Jesus' lifetime and shoudl be considered hearsay also.

 

[64Tide]

I would love to see a link to this story.

Search chrislam, many articles appear.

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

I can’t prove the Bible’s right? How about this:
Genesis 8:22 (ESV) While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.” Is the Bible correct here?

I have researched and I struggle to understand what this is proof of. That the Bible is like a palm reader who gives you generic "as long as the earth exists it will exist" prophecies and expects you to believe everything they say. If day and night ceased then of course the earth would cease to exist.

 

[bcracker]

Your witnesses propose to write about things they did not witness as if they were fact. Very little of the Old Testament was first hand and none of the disciples were at the birth. They absolutely are not reliable as to the divinity of Jesus or the circumstances of his birth. I would actually say they are flat lying about it to make him appear to satisfy a prophecy.

Edit. I should also point out that eyewitness testimony use often the most unreliable testimony of all

So, let's get this straight: You say the apostles (not to mention the hundreds of other eyewitnesses) are "flat out" lying about the religion of Christ. Let's consider Paul as a test case to see if your accusation holds up. We're introduced to Paul (called "Saul" at the time) in Acts chapter eight, where we find him approving the execution of Stephen, an avowed disciple of the Lord Jesus, and the first lying conspirator (according to your theory) to die a horrible death for the Great Lie (he was pummeled to death with rocks, by the way). All he had to do was to admit the lie and they would have spared him.

Afterwards, Saul continues to "breathe out slaughter" against the followers of Jesus, killing many and imprisoning men and women, simply because they said that Jesus was the Christ. It was a lie, but they died for it and went to prison for it anyway, because who really wants to live, right? The important thing for them was to perpetuate the lie.

In Acts chapter nine, we find Paul on the way to Damascus, with letters from the leaders of the Jews granting him authority to bind more followers of Jesus and drag them back to Jerusalem where they too will be killed and imprisoned for the Great Lie.

But a funny thing happed on Saul's journey. Before reaching the city, he decided to do a complete 180 and cast his lot with the conspirators and live the lie too! I guess he decided to do it for laughs, give up his exalted place in Jewish society, the riches and the fame, and live like a wanted criminal the rest of his life. So, he made up the story about Jesus appearing to him on the road and commissioning him as the apostle to the Gentiles, which just added to the laughs, because the Jews hated the Gentiles. Then he goes into the city and convinces Ananias-- an avowed follower of Jesus, who knew Paul had been had hounding, harassing, and murdering his fellow disciples--that he wants in on the lie too! And Ananias buys it! Then Paul goes to Jerusalem and convinces the other Apostles and disciples that he's a fellow conspirator! And they buy it too! The families of those whom Paul murdered and imprisoned for the Great Lie were there and accepted him with I open arms into the conspiracy! Then the crowd he used to run with, the one that supported him during his murderous rampage, ties to kill him.

Then Paul takes the charade on the road, on three different journeys, for after all he must have been a masochist, and he perpetuates the lie in every city he frequents. As a result of his stubbornness to cling to the Great Lie, he was beaten with rods three times, stoned and left for dead, shipwrecked tree times, and on one of them he clung to wreckage for a night and a day. On at least two different occasions he was imprisoned for what he taught, and the first one was for over two years. On five different occasions he received forty lashes from the Jews. He was "in perils often," and on and on we could go. And finally, he's led from the cell of his second imprisonment and is beheaded. All for the Great Lie! And you say you don't believe in miracles?

I apologize if it seems I am being flippant about this. Let me go further in depth. The eyewitnesses in question report a lot of hearsay which is not corroborated by any actual evidence and which they were not even saying they were present to witness. The historical record shows that Jesus probably did exist and was a preacher around 20 AD. He may or may not have been executed by the Romans. There is no actual proof that the person named as the writer is the actual writer of any of the Gospels, just faith and tradition. The generally accepted timeline is that these were anonymously written in the name of the particular apostle from oral traditions of the time. The oldest existing copy of any piece of any of them is a good 150-250 years after the fact. So, once you begin talking about eyewitnesses as proof you are going to have to corroborate that with other fact. The few Roman mentions of Jesus were way after the fact and are not corroborated with any evidence from Jesus' lifetime and shoudl be considered hearsay also.

Eyewitness testimony is not hearsay evidence. Hearsay testimony is "based on information a witness has heard from another person rather from direct personal knowledge or experience." Hearsay evidence, with few exceptions, is not admissible in most if not all courts in the world.

Where are you coming up with your information? First century Christians knew who authored the Gospels. Polycarp (69AD--155AD) was a disciple of John the apostle, who was an apostle of Christ and an eyewitness to His life, resurrection, and ascension. I'm pretty sure John knew who wrote the gospels, because he authored one of them and knew the authors of the other ones intimately. John no doubt passed on the information to Polycarp because Polycarp named the authors of the gospels. Actually, there is plenty of proof for the authorship of the gospels.

The oldest fragment of the gospels is actually the Rylands fragment of John's gospel (P52). It is generally dated between 125 AD and 175 AD. Some scholars date it to the late first century, so we're actually talking contemporary with or just a few decades removed from the authors. There was a time when radical critics dated the book of John from around 300 AD. They did this because John's gospel focuses on the deity of Christ, which they cannot abide, and a later date of authorship would lend credence to their theory that Christ's "supposed" deity wasn't believed by the early disciples but instead evolved over time. The discovery of this fragment put the kibosh on all that. What "historical record" are you referring to for your information?

What "other fact" would be acceptable to you for corroboration with eyewitness testimony to the veracity of the Bible as "proof"? I gave you fulfilled prophecy; you reject that, apparently. What other proof would suffice for you?

By the way Peter (an apostle of Jesus) said, "For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our LORD Jesus Christ, but we were EYEWITNESES of his majesty" (2 Pet. 1:16).

John, another apostle of Jesus, said, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life" (1 John 1:1-2). So, the witnesses wrote about the facts that they witnessed, not "about things they did not witness as if they were fact" as you propose.

I have researched and I struggle to understand what this is proof of. That the Bible is like a palm reader who gives you generic "as long as the earth exists it will exist" prophecies and expects you to believe everything they say. If day and night ceased then of course the earth would cease to exist.

You said I couldn't prove the Bible is "right." This passage is right (the seasons come and go); therefore, the bible is right.

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

You ignore the fact that there's is no proof they even wrote the things attributed to them.

I will not argue anymore with you as you seem to believe that Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter must be true since one passage in it is true

 

[bcracker]

[BGCOLOR=rgb(206, 194, 194)]You ignore the fact that there's is no proof they even wrote the things attributed to them.[/BGCOLOR]

I will not argue anymore with you as you seem to believe that Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter must be true since one passage in it is true

I don’t recall mentioning Abraham Lincoln as a Vampire Hunter. I didn’t even know he hunted vampires. Is that factoid in a text book you read?

I have given you proof that the authorship of the Bible is well attested. You just don’t want to accept it.

 

[bcracker]

And, by the way, @rocknthefreeworld, you haven’t argued anything. You’ve simply made a bunch of baseless assertions. You haven’t answered any point I’ve made.

Be that as it may, Roll Tide, my friend! I’ll see you back on the football thread.