I think it's pretty obvious that Brodie had more arm strenth than JP. Brodie threw many passes over 40 yards down field that were ropes. JP has to float the ball in order to have it travel that distance. Brodie also had better timing on his throws. JP has a tendency to throw the ball late, resulting in an underthrow, or early resulting in an overthrow. Brodie was much better at hitting his receivers (namely Pro) in stride, something that I haven't seen JP do in his career at UA.
On the subject of the spread. CMS ran a very pro-styled offense with two backs and a tight end on the field most of the time. CNS & CMA run a three and four wide offense which uses a singleback and the occasional tight end. Had Brodie been in a similar offense his senior year, his numbers would be much more impressive than JP's.
The question for me is whether the coaching staff can correct JP's mechanics and eliminate the over/under thrown passes. If not, then I suspect we will move to a more underneath type of passing offense with less capability to stretch the field. I do not feel that JP has regressed between last year and this year. He had the same issues last season as he has now. I believe that he needs time to adjust to the new system, and for CMA to work with his mechanics. Only time will tell if he can live up to the expectations we all have for our starting Quarterback.
On the subject of the spread. CMS ran a very pro-styled offense with two backs and a tight end on the field most of the time. CNS & CMA run a three and four wide offense which uses a singleback and the occasional tight end. Had Brodie been in a similar offense his senior year, his numbers would be much more impressive than JP's.
The question for me is whether the coaching staff can correct JP's mechanics and eliminate the over/under thrown passes. If not, then I suspect we will move to a more underneath type of passing offense with less capability to stretch the field. I do not feel that JP has regressed between last year and this year. He had the same issues last season as he has now. I believe that he needs time to adjust to the new system, and for CMA to work with his mechanics. Only time will tell if he can live up to the expectations we all have for our starting Quarterback.
G
Guest
TerryP said:Big_Fan said:
(1) When I talk about arm strength, I generally think in pure terms...how far can the QB throw the ball from his knees. There were a lot of throws in Brodie's bag that JPW simply does not have the tools to make. The long outs and posts in particular. The only pass I think that JPW is better at is the fade - which is almost a jump ball...something he throws way too often.
Release is just that...how quickly his throwing motion reaches its point where the ball comes out of his hand. Speed does not equate to power...Sugar Ray Leonard had faster hands than George Foreman.
(2) What I was saying was that Starr started his Sophomore season. He was injured his Junior season...which was why Elmore got the nod. It was almost two decades before I was born
I do belief that if we had a mobile QB, you might redefine what you call spread offense formations.
I am enjoying the discussion. I hope that I am not coming across as pushy or anything. I don't know all of the personalities on this board so you will have to give me a little lee way
You don't have to worry about a discussion on different beliefs/definitions with me would ever upset me. As you can see, I've been deeply involved with this thread voicing my opinions. As long as someone has something to say that is disagreeing with me, all I've ever wanted is a reason why. Not some pedomorphic response.
One of the major traits of a spread offense, IMO, is the alignment of the offensive line. In spread offenses, what I consider true spreads, their gaps tend to be a bit wider and their blocking schemes more of a re-direction than a domination of the line of scrimmage.
I see Meyer's offense called a spread. The defensive line isn't more spread out, but, you do have a few more receivers lining up than say in a traditional I. I look at it more of an option based offense. Price runs what I would call a spread. Tx Tech runs what I would call a spread.
How would you define fRan's offense? What about FSU's when Lee is in the game? That's a mobile QB, one back set with multiple receivers. And, I don't think that is referred to as a spread attack.
Arm Strength.
You made me go outside, get on my knees, and throw a football. (Thank God the dogs can't pick it up, but they do push it back.) That throw, with me, takes a lot more upper body strength that it does arm strength. Which, leads me to this thought. The footwork problems we've seen out of JPW are definitely affecting his ball velocity this year. Studying the mechanics, personally with my neighbor (he was wondering what I was doing) really changed the velocity I could put on a football.
Don't feel bad about Elmore Jr. I've got tapes and DVD's dating back to the early part of last century. Books covering years of the Tide and a lot of basic ones just on football.
My name is Terry, and I'm a footballholic...
Our splits are definitely wider now than they were the past 4. Our OL is much improved this season, but still adjusting to reach blocking instead of bucket stepping. Andre has had a little trouble with it...he is more of a slobber-knocker and his interpretation of the Baghdad Bob Bucket was to drive block...that was why he was our best OL as a frosh.
The throw from the knees is a common way of testing pure arm strength. If my memory is not failing me, They even used to do it in the NFL QB All-star challenge many moons ago.
JPW's footwork is definitely problematic, however as another posted aptly noted, he does not have the strength to throw frozen ropes forty yards downfield...hence his tendency to turn every long pass into a jump ball.
You know...it occurs to me that part of JPW's problem may be that the OL was so bad last season that he started rocking back on his heels to roll with the hit that he knew was coming. It happened so much that it became a habit.
G
Guest
TerryP said:
You sure about this one or do you have JPW colored glasses on. I guess he could throw it that far it eould just be a jump ball every time rather than a strike. You sure do love some JPW.
Brodie throws harder than JPW. period.
but that doesn't necessarily translate into being a better collegiate QB. BC overthrew the bast majority of long routes at Alabama most by about 3 yards or more. i appreciate what he did, but throwing the long ball was not his forte either.
if i had my pick i'd rather have the type of passes that JPW throws as far as the loft and touch on the ball, i just wish he was more accurate. i do agree that he seems to be waiting too late to throw on a lot of the long routes. i believe it's fixable.
but that doesn't necessarily translate into being a better collegiate QB. BC overthrew the bast majority of long routes at Alabama most by about 3 yards or more. i appreciate what he did, but throwing the long ball was not his forte either.
if i had my pick i'd rather have the type of passes that JPW throws as far as the loft and touch on the ball, i just wish he was more accurate. i do agree that he seems to be waiting too late to throw on a lot of the long routes. i believe it's fixable.
TerryP
Staff
Bones82 said:
You won't find me posting something on this message forum I'm not sure it's the case. If I'm voicing an opinion, you'll find I'll preface the statement with "This is just an opinion."
I'm very familiar with the Parker family. I have a friend who introduced me to them several years ago...JPW, his Mom, Dad, Uncle..the whole tribe, so to speak. It's a close enough relationship that I had a lot of good laughs at the people criticizing him after his run-in with the law in Northport accusing the staff of being lax on JPW...all the time knowing just how tough his family was being on JPW.
I'm just as familiar with Greg McElroy. In fact, a couple of days after he signed he contacted me and asked if I could introduce him to some people around the state so he could start networking himself with his eyes set on what happens after he graduates.
To put it mildly, I'm as familiar with one as the other.
BammerHammer
Member
Two Headed Monster
Why not try splitting time between them both? Sometime this isn't a good idea but if they both have something to offer than maybe we can play both and get the best from both. We could at least use both and maybe one of them will step it up and become a starter?
Why not try splitting time between them both? Sometime this isn't a good idea but if they both have something to offer than maybe we can play both and get the best from both. We could at least use both and maybe one of them will step it up and become a starter?
TerryP
Staff
Re: Two Headed Monster
The staff doesn't believe GM has been ready as of yet. I interpret what I've heard is they see it as a choice of taking a chance on a freshman with those frosh mistakes and using a QB that may not be living up to the media and fans expectations, but he isn't losing games for us.
It seems there is a segment that wants the staff to take a chance but it isn't the MO of Saban or our staff. He'll (Saban) take a calculated risk on a blitz, but he's not going to take a chance that might result in a turnover.
Some like to label is conservative, some call it playing not to lose. Smart football, is how I see it.
It's my opinion, if we see GM it is going to be in one of two circumstances. One, because the game is out of reach. Two, because we losing. If the games are in hand, even if we are down by say 7-14 points, he'll stick with the proven hand.
BammerHammer said:
The staff doesn't believe GM has been ready as of yet. I interpret what I've heard is they see it as a choice of taking a chance on a freshman with those frosh mistakes and using a QB that may not be living up to the media and fans expectations, but he isn't losing games for us.
It seems there is a segment that wants the staff to take a chance but it isn't the MO of Saban or our staff. He'll (Saban) take a calculated risk on a blitz, but he's not going to take a chance that might result in a turnover.
Some like to label is conservative, some call it playing not to lose. Smart football, is how I see it.
It's my opinion, if we see GM it is going to be in one of two circumstances. One, because the game is out of reach. Two, because we losing. If the games are in hand, even if we are down by say 7-14 points, he'll stick with the proven hand.
G
Guest
Re: Two Headed Monster
Even playing JPW has resulted in turnovers and very costly ones at that. Remember the UGA, FSU, Houston games?
TerryP said:
Even playing JPW has resulted in turnovers and very costly ones at that. Remember the UGA, FSU, Houston games?
G
Guest
TerryP said:
Dang Terry....where were you when I needed you about 15-20 years ago?! :wink:
TerryP
Staff
Re: Two Headed Monster
There you go again! The only "costly" turnover was against FSU. You have said this before, and I took the time to break it down for you completely. If you are going to make a critical comment about a performance, back it up with facts.
The Houston Int. wasn't costly.
And, if you will kindly, find a turnover in the UGA game for me, will ya.
Here's a little help for you...it's called Game Stats/Box scores for each Bama game this season
Bones82 said:
There you go again! The only "costly" turnover was against FSU. You have said this before, and I took the time to break it down for you completely. If you are going to make a critical comment about a performance, back it up with facts.
The Houston Int. wasn't costly.
And, if you will kindly, find a turnover in the UGA game for me, will ya.
Here's a little help for you...it's called Game Stats/Box scores for each Bama game this season
G
Guest
Re: Two Headed Monster
Terry, you know I have the greatest regard for you and I'm not really even a part of this conversation. But....(don't you love it when a woman says that :wink...isn't the only reason the Houston int was not costly was because Simeon intercepted the ball at the end of the game?
If a Houston guy had caught the ball wouldn't that have been costly at that point?
I'll attempt to bow out gracefully now.
TerryP said:
Terry, you know I have the greatest regard for you and I'm not really even a part of this conversation. But....(don't you love it when a woman says that :wink
...isn't the only reason the Houston int was not costly was because Simeon intercepted the ball at the end of the game?If a Houston guy had caught the ball wouldn't that have been costly at that point?
I'll attempt to bow out gracefully now.
TerryP
Staff
Re: Two Headed Monster
I define the word costly, as if it cost something. So, in one manner of speaking you are right.
Take Simeon out of that play and it's still not completed. Simeon basically intercepted a ball that Marcus Carter was going to catch. Add to that, with the blitz package called their QB didn't have a hope or a prayer of completing anything anyway.
What I find beyond my understanding is the fact he hasn't cost us anything. He hasn't "lost a game," but, on the other hand, he's won one and put us in the position to win 2 others we lost.
Those games were lost due to breakdowns and mistakes in our defense. As example, both TD's in the UGA game came on the same scheme, same mistake.
FSU scored on a fumble by JPW. The other two, mistakes in coverage.
I think the notion we need to put an unproven player, a red-shirt frosh, a player that isn't practicing as well, one that hasn't had as many reps in a new offense, one that doesn't have experience reading defenses in a game at this point would put us deeper in some of the lax play we've seen on offense than we already are.
I LOVE the potential I've seen in GM. But, it's been a situation all along that it's hoped he'll be ready to see significant, solid playing time by his Jr. year. Even if he would have stayed with his Tx. Tech verbal instead of switching, their staff was looking for him to contribute, at the earliest, in his Jr. year. More than likely, he would see action his Sr. year. Leech, knows how to develop QB's as well as just about anyone in the NCAA.
Whether people choose to admit it or not, the late comebacks we've seen this year wouldn't have happened with GM. Those "red ball" series practiced every practice are done with JPW the majority of the time.
BamaDelta said:TerryP said:
Terry, you know I have the greatest regard for you and I'm not really even a part of this conversation. But....(don't you love it when a woman says that :wink
If a Houston guy had caught the ball wouldn't that have been costly at that point?
I'll attempt to bow out gracefully now.
I define the word costly, as if it cost something. So, in one manner of speaking you are right.
Take Simeon out of that play and it's still not completed. Simeon basically intercepted a ball that Marcus Carter was going to catch. Add to that, with the blitz package called their QB didn't have a hope or a prayer of completing anything anyway.
What I find beyond my understanding is the fact he hasn't cost us anything. He hasn't "lost a game," but, on the other hand, he's won one and put us in the position to win 2 others we lost.
Those games were lost due to breakdowns and mistakes in our defense. As example, both TD's in the UGA game came on the same scheme, same mistake.
FSU scored on a fumble by JPW. The other two, mistakes in coverage.
I think the notion we need to put an unproven player, a red-shirt frosh, a player that isn't practicing as well, one that hasn't had as many reps in a new offense, one that doesn't have experience reading defenses in a game at this point would put us deeper in some of the lax play we've seen on offense than we already are.
I LOVE the potential I've seen in GM. But, it's been a situation all along that it's hoped he'll be ready to see significant, solid playing time by his Jr. year. Even if he would have stayed with his Tx. Tech verbal instead of switching, their staff was looking for him to contribute, at the earliest, in his Jr. year. More than likely, he would see action his Sr. year. Leech, knows how to develop QB's as well as just about anyone in the NCAA.
Whether people choose to admit it or not, the late comebacks we've seen this year wouldn't have happened with GM. Those "red ball" series practiced every practice are done with JPW the majority of the time.
Maybe we should just get this guy:
G
Guest
Re: Two Headed Monster
:roll:
It says UGA had one fumble recovery that was forced by a sack.
TerryP said:
:roll:
It says UGA had one fumble recovery that was forced by a sack.
G
Guest
Re: Two Headed Monster
I do want to clarify one thing...I am not anti-JPW and I don't think we should bench him for a frosh. I do think that a comparison to Brodie (who was good enough to be drafted in the 3rd round - JPW will not be drafted barring major improvement) does not make him look good, and I do think that benching him for a series or two when he is missing every pass he throws would be a good idea - let him settle down and see things from the sideline. I don't see what it would hurt to let a frosh hand the ball off a few times if it helps Wilson get his head in the game.
TerryP said:
I do want to clarify one thing...I am not anti-JPW and I don't think we should bench him for a frosh. I do think that a comparison to Brodie (who was good enough to be drafted in the 3rd round - JPW will not be drafted barring major improvement) does not make him look good, and I do think that benching him for a series or two when he is missing every pass he throws would be a good idea - let him settle down and see things from the sideline. I don't see what it would hurt to let a frosh hand the ball off a few times if it helps Wilson get his head in the game.
TerryP
Staff
Re: Two Headed Monster
You're right. Misread the box score. Hmm, forced by a sack, eh? Let's pull the offensive line and give those guys on the bench a chance.
Of course, I do believe the conversation was around one word, wasn't it?
COSTLY?
What it cost was Georgia 5 yards with a 4th and 15 resulting is a missed FG.
Bones82 said:
You're right. Misread the box score. Hmm, forced by a sack, eh? Let's pull the offensive line and give those guys on the bench a chance.
Of course, I do believe the conversation was around one word, wasn't it?
COSTLY?
What it cost was Georgia 5 yards with a 4th and 15 resulting is a missed FG.
Threads like this tick me off. We are 4-2. We won our last game. Unless I am mistaken nobody on this forum is a Coach with the University of Alabama and thus do not see how Mac will do as the starter.
WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU SECOND GUESS THE COACHES WHO SEE THEM IN PRACTICE EVERY DAY.
Why is everyone so hard on JPW.
Wilson has completed 115 of 213 passes for 1,248 yards, with eight touchdowns and four interceptions. That computes to a passer rating of 111.8.
Those are not bad stats. He is slightly hurt (FSU) and was still slightly hurt during the Houston game.
What do you people want? Do you want us to put up video game stats? Be reasonable people or we are going to scare Coach Saban away. I feel like Saban is our last real chance to be a good football team.....the last chance for decades anyway.
It is a proccess people. Let's give Coach Saban time to get his OWN players there. Lay off JPW. He is learning a new offense and not doing a bad job.
WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU SECOND GUESS THE COACHES WHO SEE THEM IN PRACTICE EVERY DAY.
Why is everyone so hard on JPW.
Wilson has completed 115 of 213 passes for 1,248 yards, with eight touchdowns and four interceptions. That computes to a passer rating of 111.8.
Those are not bad stats. He is slightly hurt (FSU) and was still slightly hurt during the Houston game.
What do you people want? Do you want us to put up video game stats? Be reasonable people or we are going to scare Coach Saban away. I feel like Saban is our last real chance to be a good football team.....the last chance for decades anyway.
It is a proccess people. Let's give Coach Saban time to get his OWN players there. Lay off JPW. He is learning a new offense and not doing a bad job.
Crimson&WhiteGecko
Member
;sal :cheSwamptick said:
