| FTBL Stick with JPW or give McElroy a shot?

[Outlaw]

I seem to remember when Brodie was QB, and some transfer from Miami came in and everyone thought oh he must be great, so they wanted to see him play some. They weren't saying to bench Brodie (from what I remember...), just to give him a shot and see what he could do.

We all saw how that ended up.

Just something which came to my mind.

 

[Guest]

I seem to remember when Brodie was QB, and some transfer from Miami came in and everyone thought oh he must be great, so they wanted to see him play some. They weren't saying to bench Brodie (from what I remember...), just to give him a shot and see what he could do.

We all saw how that ended up.

Just something which came to my mind.

IMHO I think Brodie was one of the best that has played QB in a long time. Granted with time JPW will be too,but Brodie had the gun! I also hope he gets to start this week as well. Go KC!

 

[Outlaw]

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't. :?

 

[Guest]

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't. :?

JPW does not have near the tools that Brodie has.

 

[TerryP]

I seem to remember when Brodie was QB, and some transfer from Miami came in and everyone thought oh he must be great, so they wanted to see him play some. They weren't saying to bench Brodie (from what I remember...), just to give him a shot and see what he could do.

We all saw how that ended up.

Just something which came to my mind.

IMHO I think Brodie was one of the best that has played QB in a long time. Granted with time JPW will be too,but Brodie had the gun! I also hope he gets to start this week as well. Go KC!

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't

While Brodie did have talent, and went through a bad time around the program, he was one of the roots of the problems under the Shula regime.

He didn't give Shula the respect he should, which led other players to do the same knowing that if they were with Brodie, Shula wouldn't call them on it. (this has nothing to do with S&C, fwiw)

 

[TerryP]

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't. :?

JPW does not have near the tools that Brodie has.

Wow. Switch a couple of words around and it is still the truth.

JPW isn't the...

 

[Guest]

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't. :?

JPW does not have near the tools that Brodie has.

The only tool Brodie has/had over JPW is arm strength.

 

[Guest]

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't. :?

JPW does not have near the tools that Brodie has.

The only tool Brodie has/had over JPW is arm strength.

Well...arm strength, release, throwing motion, ability to look off receivers...pretty much everything related to passing the ball. Not to mention he knew when to check out of a play (though some of that problem may be inexperience in the system).

Not knocking JPW, but he is no where near what Brodie was his senior season. In my opinion, if Brodie would have been in the right system and under better coaching, he would have been a first rounder.

JPW is not the quarterback for Applewhite's spread offense. He needs a mobile QB and until we get one our offense is somewhat limited. Clement and Armstrong (Rice's QB's) combined for almost 1000 yards rushing last year (and 2700 passing).

 

[TerryP]

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't. :?

JPW does not have near the tools that Brodie has.

The only tool Brodie has/had over JPW is arm strength.

This is interesting. Comparing Brodie's Sr. year to JPW this year.

Passing offense is rated higher now than under BC.

Passing yards per game is slightly higher. (HUGE difference in rushing yards. Around 80 more a game now)

T/O margin is practically the same. (BC...67 vs .83 per game)

Have gained close to 50 yards a game now vs '05.

BC- 134 in pass efficiency vs JPW at 115.

80 more 1st downs this year and the two will be tied for # total.

2 more 4th down conversions and they'll be tied. BC 38% compared to 60%.

Red zone offense. BC 18 TD's for the year. JPW 16 through half the year.

I could go on...crazy.

 

[Guest]

I was always a Brodie fan as well, but a lot of people weren't. :?

JPW does not have near the tools that Brodie has.

The only tool Brodie has/had over JPW is arm strength.

This is interesting. Comparing Brodie's Sr. year to JPW this year.

Passing offense is rated higher now than under BC.

Passing yards per game is slightly higher. (HUGE difference in rushing yards. Around 80 more a game now)

T/O margin is practically the same. (BC...67 vs .83 per game)

Have gained close to 50 yards a game now vs '05.

BC- 134 in pass efficiency vs JPW at 115.

80 more 1st downs this year and the two will be tied for # total.

2 more 4th down conversions and they'll be tied. BC 38% compared to 60%.

Red zone offense. BC 18 TD's for the year. JPW 16 through half the year.

I could go on...crazy.

Bart Starr led Bama to an 0-10 record his senior season at the Capstone. Crazy.

 

[TerryP]

Well...arm strength, release, throwing motion, ability to look off receivers...pretty much everything related to passing the ball. Not to mention he knew when to check out of a play (though some of that problem may be inexperience in the system).

I have to disagree a bit here. BC's arm strength was directly related to his quick release. Same thing almost...that zip he put on the ball. JPW was throwing the ball as far down field as Brodie did in practice.

Mechanics. Yeah, got to give that to Brodie when he wasn't receiving pressure...put him under pressure and it was a different story.

Brodie, like JPW, concentrated on who the ball was going to...

Brodie wasn't even allowed to audible until his Sr. season, and very little at that. Shula didn't really begin installing the audible until the 4th year...very few his third year.

Not knocking JPW, but he is no where near what Brodie was his senior season. In my opinion, if Brodie would have been in the right system and under better coaching, he would have been a first rounder.

JPW is not the quarterback for Applewhite's spread offense. He needs a mobile QB and until we get one our offense is somewhat limited. Clement and Armstrong (Rice's QB's) combined for almost 1000 yards rushing last year (and 2700 passing).

We don't run a spread offense. And, if you look at the numbers above there isn't much difference in productivity between the two. At the end of this season, he'll make BC's last season look average, at best.

 

[TerryP]

Bart Starr led Bama to an 0-10 record his senior season at the Capstone. Crazy.

Look who Starr had as his coach...our worst in history.

Do you recall who started in '54?

 

[Guest]

I have to disagree a bit here. BC's arm strength was directly related to his quick release. Same thing almost...that zip he put on the ball. JPW was throwing the ball as far down field as Brodie did in practice.

Given protection, Brodie hit receivers in stride when they were already 40+ yards down the field. The throw to DJ Hall against UT JPW could not have made. Most of JPW's long passes are up for grabs if they go over 20. On the issue of release relating to arm strength, they are not necessarily related. It is possible to have a quick release and a weak arm...or a slow release and a strong arm (Watts).

Mechanics. Yeah, got to give that to Brodie when he wasn't receiving pressure...put him under pressure and it was a different story.

Brodie played behind the most porous offensive line we have ever had...coached by the worst OL coach we have ever had. He never had the benefit of Andre Smith protecting his blind side. When mechanics went out the window, Brodie still had enough arm strength to muscle the throw. When JPW gets pressured, he makes bad throws...he does not have the strength to make up for it.

Brodie, like JPW, concentrated on who the ball was going to...

Perhaps that is a hallmark of a Shula coached QB? Brodie was not as bad about it...particularly when he had multiple receivers who he could trust. After Pro got hurt, he tended to lock on to DJ more because no one else could catch it.

Brodie wasn't even allowed to audible until his Sr. season, and very little at that. Shula didn't really begin installing the audible until the 4th year...very few his third year.

He did audible a bit his Junior season, but the injury bug kept him off the field so much before his Senior year that it is hard to say what he could and could not do. If you notice though, I did specify his SENIOR season in my original post, and I stand by it. JPW is no where near the QB that Brodie was his senior season.

We don't run a spread offense. And, if you look at the numbers above there isn't much difference in productivity between the two. At the end of this season, he'll make BC's last season look average, at best.

We don't have the players to run Applewhite's spread offense - like I said...although we do have formations that are spread formations. We rarely play a traditional I backfield or true pro set. I think our one back + one tight and one back trips formations in the shotgun would have to be classified as spread formations, but we don't have a QB capable of adding a run threat...except Fanuzzi, and Applewhite recruited him. Its easy to figure out why...he had over 1000 yards rushing his senior season and over 5 yards per carry. Add the fact that Starr Jackson is our QB in this class and you can see where our offense is headed.

 

[Guest]

Look who Starr had as his coach...our worst in history.

Do you recall who started in '54?

(1) Shula played to not lose. That hurt Brodie's stats and our won loss record.

(2) Albert Elmore? I think...pretty sure. Starr was hurt that season after starting his Sophomore year iirc.

 

[TerryP]

I don't disagree in the least about two different styles of QB's when comparing the Shula recruit to the Saban recruit. I saw what he was after at LSU and for the short time at Mich. St.

I ran out to pick up some Chinese food a second ago and the place happens to be right next to the football field for a local Div. 1AA school. While waiting I was watching the LB's and noticed one who had really great pursuit angles. It made me think about the arm discussion. I make the comparison because a lot of fans point to speed in the LB corps when most of the time a good pursuit angle looks like speed, but it's just smart play. More than one way of defining it, ya know? Just like I think there is more than one way to define arm strength.

I've seen JPW rifle some balls on 30-40 yard routes during practices and skel drills. But, his style is like you describe. He's one to float the ball out there and allow the WR to run under it. That style is successful AS LONG as you have the right WR's in the routes.

I don't see the 1 RB, shotgun, with 3 wides as a spread offense. But hell, how many different offenses do we see that are classified as a type of spread offense? Off the top of my head I can think of a half a dozen that are different offenses. Heck, it's a term used about as often as the West Coast offense which is different on so many teams. Basically, we are using what I've called an Ace package.

I can't remember the exact number...I want to say it was 3 audibles Brodie was allowed to call the Jr. year. In '06 there were several team members that said there were only times he was allowed to audible. A lot of times he was being instructed by Shula to act like he was calling a check, but went with the original play. FWIW, two of the summer camp coaches told me that in the summer of '05 Shula still hadn't installed those checks...and that was straight from a few of the coaches on staff.

I was thinking that Starr was hurt his Jr. year. However, that was more than a decade before I was born and learning that was something I had read at some point or another.

Albert Elmore Jr. was there in 53-55...so that probably is right. His dad played under Wade...don't you know he was ticked off at the last of Red Drew's years and Ears as well.

 

[Guest]

Just like I think there is more than one way to define arm strength.


I was thinking that Starr was hurt his Jr. year. However, that was more than a decade before I was born and learning that was something I had read at some point or another.

Albert Elmore Jr. was there in 53-55...so that probably is right. His dad played under Wade...don't you know he was ticked off at the last of Red Drew's years and Ears as well.

(1) When I talk about arm strength, I generally think in pure terms...how far can the QB throw the ball from his knees. There were a lot of throws in Brodie's bag that JPW simply does not have the tools to make. The long outs and posts in particular. The only pass I think that JPW is better at is the fade - which is almost a jump ball...something he throws way too often.

Release is just that...how quickly his throwing motion reaches its point where the ball comes out of his hand. Speed does not equate to power...Sugar Ray Leonard had faster hands than George Foreman.

(2) What I was saying was that Starr started his Sophomore season. He was injured his Junior season...which was why Elmore got the nod. It was almost two decades before I was born

I do belief that if we had a mobile QB, you might redefine what you call spread offense formations.

I am enjoying the discussion. I hope that I am not coming across as pushy or anything. I don't know all of the personalities on this board so you will have to give me a little lee way

 

[TerryP]

Just like I think there is more than one way to define arm strength.


I was thinking that Starr was hurt his Jr. year. However, that was more than a decade before I was born and learning that was something I had read at some point or another.

Albert Elmore Jr. was there in 53-55...so that probably is right. His dad played under Wade...don't you know he was ticked off at the last of Red Drew's years and Ears as well.

(1) When I talk about arm strength, I generally think in pure terms...how far can the QB throw the ball from his knees. There were a lot of throws in Brodie's bag that JPW simply does not have the tools to make. The long outs and posts in particular. The only pass I think that JPW is better at is the fade - which is almost a jump ball...something he throws way too often.

Release is just that...how quickly his throwing motion reaches its point where the ball comes out of his hand. Speed does not equate to power...Sugar Ray Leonard had faster hands than George Foreman.

(2) What I was saying was that Starr started his Sophomore season. He was injured his Junior season...which was why Elmore got the nod. It was almost two decades before I was born

I do belief that if we had a mobile QB, you might redefine what you call spread offense formations.

I am enjoying the discussion. I hope that I am not coming across as pushy or anything. I don't know all of the personalities on this board so you will have to give me a little lee way

You don't have to worry about a discussion on different beliefs/definitions with me would ever upset me. As you can see, I've been deeply involved with this thread voicing my opinions. As long as someone has something to say that is disagreeing with me, all I've ever wanted is a reason why. Not some pedomorphic response.

One of the major traits of a spread offense, IMO, is the alignment of the offensive line. In spread offenses, what I consider true spreads, their gaps tend to be a bit wider and their blocking schemes more of a re-direction than a domination of the line of scrimmage.

I see Meyer's offense called a spread. The defensive line isn't more spread out, but, you do have a few more receivers lining up than say in a traditional I. I look at it more of an option based offense. Price runs what I would call a spread. Tx Tech runs what I would call a spread.

How would you define fRan's offense? What about FSU's when Lee is in the game? That's a mobile QB, one back set with multiple receivers. And, I don't think that is referred to as a spread attack.

Arm Strength.

You made me go outside, get on my knees, and throw a football. (Thank God the dogs can't pick it up, but they do push it back.) That throw, with me, takes a lot more upper body strength that it does arm strength. Which, leads me to this thought. The footwork problems we've seen out of JPW are definitely affecting his ball velocity this year. Studying the mechanics, personally with my neighbor (he was wondering what I was doing) really changed the velocity I could put on a football.

Don't feel bad about Elmore Jr. I've got tapes and DVD's dating back to the early part of last century. Books covering years of the Tide and a lot of basic ones just on football.

My name is Terry, and I'm a footballholic...

 

[reger60]

I appreciated Brodie while he played for us, but was anybody like me and had their behind pucker everytime the pocket collapsed around him? I spent his entire senior season just waiting for him to get injured again.

Funny, but I've never had that feeling with JPW. He seems to be pretty durable.

 

[Guest]

I appreciated Brodie while he played for us, but was anybody like me and had their behind pucker everytime the pocket collapsed around him? I spent his entire senior season just waiting for him to get injured again.

Funny, but I've never had that feeling with JPW. He seems to be pretty durable.

LOL that's true! On both sides.

 

[bamafan850]

Too bad we do not get to see all of the practices to accurately answer this question.