🏈 McCaffrey and Fournette skipped their bowl games-Critics said it would hurt them in the draft. Top 8

[BamaFan334]

"Jonathan Allen was not a top 15 pick last year". No sh*t. He was injured.

He came back and played another year, played out of his mind, and still came out injured. He didn't help himself (IMO). EDIT - The debate is whether a healthy Jon Allen without the senior tape could have still gone top 17... I believe so. You obviously disagree.

The best thing you said is the NFL draft is a "gamble". This is exactly right. I don't know how you gamble, but when I gamble, I do the best to put the odds in my favor.

What does put the odds in your favor mean? If you don't play, you won't get injured playing. It's that simple. It's what McCaffrey did, it's what what Fournette did, just on a lower scale. Sitting out the 3 previous months is the same exact idea and makes the same exact sense - LIMIT THE ODDS OF LOSING. This could absolutely limit your chances of stock going up - But when you've got a lottery ticket in your hand it's not necessary.

Take the emotion out of the spectrum and it makes plenty of sense.

So you're saying Allen should have sat out his Junior year as well, then he may not have gotten injured an entered the draft after a healthy Sophomore season and one season layoff. And then if he did not have his monster Senior season they would have had nothing to go on to be a Top 17 pick, only a injury sustained Junior season leaving how much doubt as to his ceiling, health, or abilities?

Emotion is not part of this, you thinking you have any kind of odds in your favor when you gamble is the emotion being expressed. The chips are always stacked against you, trust me. And just because you simply have a 5% more chance of winning by playing a certain way, doesn't guarantee winning. Trust me, I gamble enough to know there are no real ways to defy the odds at a casino when playing against or even with the house, because we don't have enough money to sustain ourselves and they are never promised to flip in your favor. Poker is a different story since you play the man across from you. Any ordinary dumbass that thinks they gamble better than everyone else is clearly self-absorbed. I'm guessing you weren't part of the MIT students that ripped off Vegas, but even they said it wasn't gambling, so they knew the difference in knowing and gambling, because gambling makes for bad business.

We can go back and forth here all you want, but if you do not have tape, you will not be drafted high. Coaches want a history of good tape, minus quarterbacks obviously (Trubiskey was an awful pick) Any athlete will tell you they get nicked up playing sports and we all feel the residual of when we played. I'll take the health record of Johnathan Allen over another draftee being accused of rape or hitting a woman any day. The Redskins won out here and will get a killer player whereas all of the other teams needing a defensive lineman before the pick will miss out. There is a major human element to this, and it clearly shows every year with the Browns, Jets etc. and the long list of guys they miss on. Just goes to show it's all about perception, not all facts when it comes to the NFL Draft.

 

[TUSKtimes]

He didn't do anything "grievous" in my book. Emotion aside, reality based dicussion, there's a good chance he lost millions of dollars over 3-4 years.

If he blows out his knee this summer and never comes back right, the Bronco Nagurski isn't going to buy his moms house or his kids private school.

I commend him for doing what he did. But in heind site was it the smartest BUSINESS DECISION? It would be easy to argue it wasn't.

As far as getting his degree... He didn't need to play football to do that. He could've easily trained and been a student and graduated just the same. Came into the draft healthy and have a better body for a potentially longer NFL career.

You can name Donte Hightower, I can name Trent Richardson.... Bottom line - There are no guarantees. Make the money when you can.

Sooner than later you will see this impact high level prospects finishing their college career. Big business decisions for these kids, and their families. Only a matter of time

Well, you gotta be loving one and done? Everything you just said flies in the face of every single practice Nick Saban conducts at Alabama. When you say take the money and run, you ain't kidding.

 

[Tidestalker]

Well, you gotta be loving one and done? Everything you just said flies in the face of every single practice Nick Saban conducts at Alabama. When you say take the money and run, you ain't kidding.

LOL. You mean like Saban did with the Dolphins? Coaches "take the money and run" constantly, leaving the kids they recruited for "all 4 years" behind without a second thought.

Getting emotional over business decisions is no bueno. Hard to have a rational conversation about money in those terms.

As far as 1 and done - Terrible rule. They should be able to go before college if they want.

 

[TUSKtimes]

Getting emotional over business decisions is no bueno. Hard to have a rational conversation about money in those terms.

We're not talking about "getting emotional" as far as I can see, but you are talking about quitting on your team. You're not paying attention, we don't recruit many of those.

 

[Tidestalker]

So you're saying Allen should have sat out his Junior year as well, then he may not have gotten injured an entered the draft after a healthy Sophomore season and one season layoff. And then if he did not have his monster Senior season they would have had nothing to go on to be a Top 17 pick, only a injury sustained Junior season leaving how much doubt as to his ceiling, health, or abilities?

Emotion is not part of this, you thinking you have any kind of odds in your favor when you gamble is the emotion being expressed. The chips are always stacked against you, trust me. And just because you simply have a 5% more chance of winning by playing a certain way, doesn't guarantee winning. Trust me, I gamble enough to know there are no real ways to defy the odds at a casino when playing against or even with the house, because we don't have enough money to sustain ourselves and they are never promised to flip in your favor. Poker is a different story since you play the man across from you. Any ordinary dumbass that thinks they gamble better than everyone else is clearly self-absorbed. I'm guessing you weren't part of the MIT students that ripped off Vegas, but even they said it wasn't gambling, so they knew the difference in knowing and gambling, because gambling makes for bad business.

We can go back and forth here all you want, but if you do not have tape, you will not be drafted high. Coaches want a history of good tape, minus quarterbacks obviously (Trubiskey was an awful pick) Any athlete will tell you they get nicked up playing sports and we all feel the residual of when we played. I'll take the health record of Johnathan Allen over another draftee being accused of rape or hitting a woman any day. The Redskins won out here and will get a killer player whereas all of the other teams needing a defensive lineman before the pick will miss out. There is a major human element to this, and it clearly shows every year with the Browns, Jets etc. and the long list of guys they miss on. Just goes to show it's all about perception, not all facts when it comes to the NFL Draft.

I never said he should have sat out his jr year. Don't think he was an elite prospect until after that season.

I agree with your third paragraph. Except I would add to your "coaches want history of good tape" - Coaches want players with good tape and good health - Jon Allen had plenty of good tape after his first 3 years.

And as far as your gambling rant... You're talking about playing cards or gambling straight up. That's not with this is. These are kids that have already guaranteed themselves a win. Just a matter of how much of that they can lose.

 

[Tidestalker]

We're not talking about "getting emotional" as far as I can see, but you are talking about quitting on your team. You're not paying attention, we don't recruit many of those.

When Nick Saban left LSU for the Dolphins was he quitting on his team? Or doing what's best for him?

 

[TUSKtimes]

When Nick Saban left LSU for the Dolphins was he quitting on his team? Or doing what's best for him?

Hey, you really don't need my blessings to look this stupid on this particular subject. Just to know you're going for it is entertaining enough for me.

 

[Tidestalker]

Hey, you really don't need my blessings to look this stupid on this particular subject. Just to know you're going for it is entertaining enough for me.

That's what I thought. Feel free to answer the question when you're not so emotional

 

[planomateo]

 

[Tidestalker]

Good article. This part stood out to me

Numerous folks at both the college and NFL level pointed out how agent influence will determine the intensity of this trend. What the average college football fan drastically underestimates is how ingratiated top prospects are with agents by the time they declare. Agents spend years building relationships with prospects and their families, casting themselves as looking out only for a prospect’s best interest

I'd say *before* they declare

 

[TUSKtimes]

That's what I thought. Feel free to answer the question when you're not so emotional

The answer is in my first post addressing the gains and sacrifices made by different sports people who all prioritize their careers as they so chose. I know this is difficult to emotionally comprehend, but their choices are unique to them alone and what they individually think will make them most happy in those careers and in their personal life. Now doesn't that sound like a waste of time and effort when all you want is the winning lotto ticket?

 

[BamaFan334]

When Nick Saban left LSU for the Dolphins was he quitting on his team? Or doing what's best for him?

He leave before the end of the year or after? Terrific point though, :eyeroll:. No one is complaining when they leave after three years, we are complaining when they leave 2.95 years into it, and not finishing. Wasn't that a team motto one of these past few years?

You said in a past post that none of the awards would pay Allen's bills later if he got hurt and lost money, but I've got news for you, an Alabama education will. That is something that gives back each and every day. I know because I have one, and I think the Lord above daily for the opportunity he gave me. Alabama and Coach Saban put these guys in position to score, and you can't be a little chicken shit and quit on everyone like you're saying they should be able to. Horrible precedence, and I wouldn't want that on my team or in my office. Most employers don't either.

 

[Tidestalker]

He leave before the end of the year or after? Terrific point though, :eyeroll:. No one is complaining when they leave after three years, we are complaining when they leave 2.95 years into it, and not finishing. Wasn't that a team motto one of these past few years?

You said in a past post that none of the awards would pay Allen's bills later if he got hurt and lost money, but I've got news for you, an Alabama education will. That is something that gives back each and every day. I know because I have one, and I think the Lord above daily for the opportunity he gave me. Alabama and Coach Saban put these guys in position to score, and you can't be a little chicken **** and quit on everyone like you're saying they should be able to. Horrible precedence, and I wouldn't want that on my team or in my office. Most employers don't either.

Once again... He can easily finish the degree without playing football.

What about a kid quitting after 2 years? Like Cam Rob sitting out his jr year? It wouldn't be during the season. I'm hoping you'd view that the same as a professional doing what's best for their career, just as most would view Nick Saban and other coaches movements.

You need an Alabama degree... Jon Allen doesn't. Cam Robinson doesn't. Yes Coach Saban assisted these guys along the way.... But as a coach... I really dislike the idea of coaches taking credit for a players success. Trust me, Cam Robinson would have been drafted last week regardless of who was coaching him. Allen the same. They're just that 1% of phenomal talents in college football that doesn't NEED anything... Schools NEED them.

 

[Tidestalker]

their choices are unique to them alone and what they individually think will make them most happy in those careers and in their personal life.

Bingo. Some of these kids will be prioritizing to minimize the risk of not cashing in on their lotto ticket. It's as simple as guys making a solid business decision to support themselves and their families.

 

[planomateo]

I really dislike the idea of coaches taking credit for a players success.

Who gets the blame if they don't develop like they should? It's both coaching and student that enable someone to reach the next level. Each person is different, some require lots of attention while others don't. (obviously I'm preaching to the choir). I think the good coaches have pride in their students when things work out for the better and regret the ones they weren't able to better.

It's as simple as guys making a solid business decision

Isn't "business" already implied? It's really just a decision, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[BamaFan334]

Once again... He can easily finish the degree without playing football.

What about a kid quitting after 2 years? Like Cam Rob sitting out his jr year? It wouldn't be during the season. I'm hoping you'd view that the same as a professional doing what's best for their career, just as most would view Nick Saban and other coaches movements.

You need an Alabama degree... Jon Allen doesn't. Cam Robinson doesn't. Yes Coach Saban assisted these guys along the way.... But as a coach... I really dislike the idea of coaches taking credit for a players success. Trust me, Cam Robinson would have been drafted last week regardless of who was coaching him. Allen the same. They're just that 1% of phenomal talents in college football that doesn't NEED anything... Schools NEED them.

I like how you say I need one and they don't. How many players are out of the league and having to fall back on the diploma they earned for work, or forced to work a dead end job because they didn't earn one? And even the ones that just don't go back because they feel there are too many barriers.

You're changing your argument now about him leaving after the season. I am clearly talking about skipping a bowl game or any other games within a season in which you play. I personally think they should make all athletes stay four years in efforts of getting them closer to a degree and using that time to mentally prepare them for professional opportunities. I know that unfortunately will never happen, so I don't care as much about that one way or the other. If a guy is dumb enough to leave after his first year of football, have fun and enjoy the fall. It sucks to think about so many futures ruined due to that possibility, but hey, whatever they decide. I do have an issue with collecting a full scholarship and not completing your season. You are given so much and the opportunity to earn even more, so you should hold up to your end of the deal and play 100% of the season, unless you are truly injured, not preventing. Scholarships are contracts and I have no doubt players sitting out of games is only going to cause universities to tighten up the language on scholarships which will in turn have dumbass folks whining about the athletes not being given enough. I believe universities should offer only four year full time scholarships in efforts of covering an athlete under all circumstances.

 

[Tidestalker]

I like how you say I need one and they don't. How many players are out of the league and having to fall back on the diploma they earned for work, or forced to work a dead end job because they didn't earn one? And even the ones that just don't go back because they feel there are too many barriers.

You're changing your argument now about him leaving after the season. I am clearly talking about skipping a bowl game or any other games within a season in which you play. I personally think they should make all athletes stay four years in efforts of getting them closer to a degree and using that time to mentally prepare them for professional opportunities. I know that unfortunately will never happen, so I don't care as much about that one way or the other. If a guy is dumb enough to leave after his first year of football, have fun and enjoy the fall. It sucks to think about so many futures ruined due to that possibility, but hey, whatever they decide. I do have an issue with collecting a full scholarship and not completing your season. You are given so much and the opportunity to earn even more, so you should hold up to your end of the deal and play 100% of the season, unless you are truly injured, not preventing. Scholarships are contracts and I have no doubt players sitting out of games is only going to cause universities to tighten up the language on scholarships which will in turn have dumbass folks whining about the athletes not being given enough. I believe universities should offer only four year full time scholarships in efforts of covering an athlete under all circumstances.

I'm not saying that to raz you, I really mean that your degree is more powerful then theirs. You will use it, they won't.

How many *first rounders* are out of the league and having to fall back on a diploma? This day in age... Not many. Try naming them. Jonny Manziel comes to mind but I bet he's still got a pocket full of cash. Wages going up and up every year. Back in the day I'm sure it was more of an issue, but the guaranteed money being thrown around in 2017 is life altering.

I'm not changing my argument. I was genuinely asking a question. Clearly we disagree on the 2.95 years of playing and how that should be perceived... We can continue to beat that horse if you'd like. You're against it, I'm not.

The problem with certain universities changing their scholarship agreement is this - Let's say Alabama has a scholarship that "forces" guys to play the full 4, and LSU says you can opt out when you like. LSU is starting to look a lot better to the 5 stars with NFL aspirations... Again, that 1% just get to play by different rules.

Personally I like the idea of kids staying for 4 years. Lots of good reasons for it. But I like the idea of them having the power of their own financial freedom more. Even if Cam Robinson only played 2 yrs at Alabama, he helped win a National Championship and did more than his share to keep the program thriving and making $. Its only fair he can go get his, on his terms.

 

[BamaFan334]

I'm not saying that to raz you, I really mean that your degree is more powerful then theirs. You will use it, they won't.

How many *first rounders* are out of the league and having to fall back on a diploma? This day in age... Not many. Try naming them. Jonny Manziel comes to mind but I bet he's still got a pocket full of cash. Wages going up and up every year. Back in the day I'm sure it was more of an issue, but the guaranteed money being thrown around in 2017 is life altering.

I'm not changing my argument. I was genuinely asking a question. Clearly we disagree on the 2.95 years of playing and how that should be perceived... We can continue to beat that horse if you'd like. You're against it, I'm not.

The problem with certain universities changing their scholarship agreement is this - Let's say Alabama has a scholarship that "forces" guys to play the full 4, and LSU says you can opt out when you like. LSU is starting to look a lot better to the 5 stars with NFL aspirations... Again, that 1% just get to play by different rules.

Personally I like the idea of kids staying for 4 years. Lots of good reasons for it. But I like the idea of them having the power of their own financial freedom more. Even if Cam Robinson only played 2 yrs at Alabama, he helped win a National Championship and did more than his share to keep the program thriving and making $. Its only fair he can go get his, on his terms.

I didn't take it as you razzing me, so no worries there. Ha, and I agree, I definitely needed it more than they did.

With my four year scholarahip comment, I just meant when you offer a kid, it should be a four year contract that the schools sticks behind, even if they guy gets hurt in high school after committing or during his tenure. It's something I feel all schools should be forced to do, not just some and allowing loopholes like you discussed. Almost like the stipend, the kids are going to go where more money is being given, the more enticing offer.

 

[Rolltide24]

Was reading this thread for entertainment only but couldn't help but do a double-take on this statement. You really think it's a short list of first rounders needing a college degree for no longer being in the league? Only 71% of first rounders are in the league 5 years later over the last 10 years. 41% of second rounders. (Cam was second round....). Just Bama has had Rolando, Millner, and Trent the last few years. These guys all need a degree even though they made some good money in a short term. I guarantee it won't last them. My Panthers here have taken Jimmy Clausen, Everette Brown, and Jeff Otah in the 1st round the last 8 years or so. These are just a few guys off the top of my head. Browns, Detroit and Bills I know have drafted a number of guys the last 5-10 years that didn't. Don't have to go too far back to get guys like Jamarcus, Tebow, Gholston, Dion Jordan, Brady Quinn, Jake Locker, Gaines Adams. Heck the 2009 draft had plenty of guys who didn't last. First round sure doesn't mean set for life. Not the way many of these guys spend money after paying their agents and taxes. Since the collective bargaining agreement changed in 2011. Sam Bradford signed a 6-year $78MM contract ($50MM guaranteed) in 2010 as the top pick. After the new agreement, Cam, the next seasons top pick, got $22MM fkr 4 years. HUGE reduction in money for first rounders. So yeah, first rounders make big money, that's not-negotiable. A fact. But there are a decent number that bust and likely more often than not end up needing to work at some point.

How many *first rounders* are out of the league and having to fall back on a diploma? This day in age... Not many. Try naming them. Jonny Manziel comes to mind but I bet he's still got a pocket full of cash. Wages going up and up every year. Back in the day I'm sure it was more of an issue, but the guaranteed money being thrown around in 2017 is life altering.

 

[Tidestalker]

Was reading this thread for entertainment only but couldn't help but do a double-take on this statement. You really think it's a short list of first rounders needing a college degree for no longer being in the league? Only 71% of first rounders are in the league 5 years later over the last 10 years. 41% of second rounders. (Cam was second round....). Just Bama has had Rolando, Millner, and Trent the last few years. These guys all need a degree even though they made some good money in a short term. I guarantee it won't last them. My Panthers here have taken Jimmy Clausen, Everette Brown, and Jeff Otah in the 1st round the last 8 years or so. These are just a few guys off the top of my head. Browns, Detroit and Bills I know have drafted a number of guys the last 5-10 years that didn't. Don't have to go too far back to get guys like Jamarcus, Tebow, Gholston, Dion Jordan, Brady Quinn, Jake Locker, Gaines Adams. Heck the 2009 draft had plenty of guys who didn't last. First round sure doesn't mean set for life. Not the way many of these guys spend money after paying their agents and taxes. Since the collective bargaining agreement changed in 2011. Sam Bradford signed a 6-year $78MM contract ($50MM guaranteed) in 2010 as the top pick. After the new agreement, Cam, the next seasons top pick, got $22MM fkr 4 years. HUGE reduction in money for first rounders. So yeah, first rounders make big money, that's not-negotiable. A fact. But there are a decent number that bust and likely more often than not end up needing to work at some point.

Here are the estimated four-year contract values for the 2017 NFL Draft first-round picks (with the figures of Forbes/overthecap.com/spotrac.com):

1. Myles Garrett, Browns: $30,275,992 / $30,408,550 / $30,566,250
2. Mitchell Trubisky, Bears: $28,902,911 / $29,028,894 / $29,178,790
3. Solomon Thomas, 49ers: $28,029,149 / $29,028,894 / $28,295,878
4. Leonard Fournette, Jaguars: $27,030,534 / $28,150,940 / $27,286,806
5. Corey Davis, Western Michigan: $25,282,971 / $25,391,648 / $25,520,944
6. Jamal Adams, Jets: $22,162,335 / $22,256,084 / $22,367,629
7. Mike Williams, Chargers: $19,665,824 / $19,747,636 / $19,844,976
8. Christian McCaffrey, Panthers: $17,169,314 / $17,239,192 / $17,322,323
9. John Ross, Bengals: $17,044,347 / $17,113,760 / $17,196,047
10. Patrick Mahomes, Chiefs: $16,357,943 / $16,423,942 / $16,602,457
11. Marshon Lattimore, Saints: $15,296,937 / $15,357,848 / $15,430,339
12. Deshaun Watson, Texans: $13,799,018 / $13,852,776 / $13,916,735
13. Haason Reddick, Cardinals: $13,424,544 / $13,476,514 / $13,538,340
14. Derek Barnett, Eagles: $12,800,418 / $12,848,404 / $12,907,678
15. Malik Hooker, Colts: $12,550,782 / $12,598,556 / $12,655,428
16. Marlon Humphrey, Ravens: $11,801,811 / $11,846,014 / $11,898,614
17. Jonathan Allen, Redskins: $11,552,159 / $11,595,170 / $11,646,348
18. Adoree Jackson, Titans: $11,240,100 / $11,281,622 / $11,331,021
19. O.J. Howard, Buccaneers: $11,052,856 / $11,093,482 / $11,141,816
20. Garett Bolles, Broncos: $10,990,448 / $11,030,774 / $11,078,755
21. Jarrad Davis, Lions: $10,928,034 / $10,969,060 / $11,015,687
22. Charles Harris, Dolphins: $10,803,204 / $10,842,638 / $10,889,550
23. Evan Engram, Giants: $10,678,382 / $10,717,216 / $10,763,421
24. Gareon Conley, Raiders: $10,428,730 / $10,466,372 / $10,511,154
25. Jabrill Peppers, Browns: $10,303,908 / $10,340,946 / $10,258,873
26. Takkarist McKinley, Falcons: $10,179,063 / $10,215,524 / $10,258,873
27. Tre'Davious White, Bills: $10,054,256 / $10,090,102 / $10,132,759
28. Taco Charlton, Cowboys: $9,991,841 / $10,027,398 / $10,069,691
29. David Njoku, Browns: $9,491,010 / $9,524,166 / $9,563,615
30. T.J. Watt, Steelers: $9,225,787 / $9,257,666 / $9,295,615
31. Reuben Foster, 49ers: $9,003,620 / $9,034,450 / $9,071,121
32. Ryan Ramczyk, Saints: $8,860,569 / $8,890,720 / $8,926,572

You make a valid point - Some guys could run out of money, or get cut, etc.

But please don't gloss over the fact that these guys can always come back and get a degree. This is truly a diversion in this conversation. Leaving early or sitting out literally has no bearing on whether or not they can be a college graduate.