ElephantStomp
Member
Reagan started the trickle down economics
| CURRENT EVENTS Is it safe to say Trump just secured the nomination?
- Thread starter TerryP
- Start date
The idea of tax cuts stimulating the economy predated Reagan. These days, any reduction in effective tax rates has to be for the top half of earners because the bottom half pays nothing. That doesn't stop democrats from continuing to implement "refundable tax credits", meaning that if your earnings aren't enough to actually owe taxes, you'll still get a payment FROM the government.
ElephantStomp
Member
I’m not a top half earner and I pay a shitload in taxes, so the “bottom half pays nothing” is bullshit.
Som, if you don’t make enough you get money from the dems huh? Weird my ex wife hasn’t gotten shit from them and she’s not made enough to pay taxes in 10 years
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XXL TideFan
Member
According to Forbes the average wage in the US is $59,428 yearly. Make over that your a top half earner
ElephantStomp
Member
Let me say it again- I’m not a top half earner, I’m a rancher and a PhD student
I'll second that.
@ElephantStomp I don't know how your ranching operation (not sure of the size of your place, if you own it/lease it/stand to inherit it/owe on it, the number/type of livestock you raise, etc.) operates. You shared some info on your house and electric a bit ago, how thrifty that is - does your ranching operation operate under those costs as well?
Using the $59M mentioned by @XXL TideFan and you noting you were below that, if your AGI is below that, you could claim a $2,000 a year credit on your graduate work. I'm glad you still have a decent enough relationship with your ex - for your kids' sake - to know her financial situation. The Earned Income Tax Credit comes into play for many who are in the lower half of earners. If she earns nothing, perhaps she should consider filing and receiving what millions of other citizens and residents receive.
I've tried to differentiate between payroll taxes and income taxes. All workers pay payroll taxes (up to a max for Social Security, unlimited for Medicare), borne equally by the worker and employer. If you are self-employed, you generally pay both halves. Again, I'm not familiar with ranch operations, so I don't know if you pay Social Security/Medicare taxes in the same fashion as most self employed.
Income taxes - the data is pretty straightforward. If you earn less than $50,000 a year and you pay Federal income tax, you are the in a distinct minority. This graphic, and the source data, excludes anyone who can be claimed on another's return, so it's not loaded with a bunch of dependents working at McDonalds and the like. Households. Of the just over 77 million households in this nation (out of about 180 million total) making up to $50,000 a year, 76% (three out of four) paid no Federal income tax in 2022. None. Those that did pay, paid a much smaller percentage and cumulative total than each ascending group.
Here's the source data for this graphic:
T22-0131 - Distribution of Tax Units with Zero or Negative Individual Income Tax, By Expanded Cash Income Level, 2022
The distribution of tax units that pay no individual income tax by expanded cash income level under current law in 2022.
In terms of contributions toward total taxes paid verses income by ranges, this graphic using 2020 data is pretty straightforward.
Backup for this:
Who Pays Income Taxes?
(pdf) It is a common refrain from some politicians that the rich are not paying their fair share of income taxes. This sentiment is echoed by findings from a Pew Research poll conducted last April, which indicated that a significant portion of respondents feel that wealthy individuals do not...
www.ntu.org
Finally, you mentioned that the idea of people getting net payments from the government (negative tax liability) was bullshit. In 2019, the bottom forty percent of households' tax liability represented negative 6.4 percent of total taxes. That means the other 60 percent paid all taxes and made up for that 6.4 percent outlay. The middle twenty percent paid a positive 3.5 percent of total taxes. The top forty percent of all households paid 102.9 percent of all Federal income taxes. The link to this is below, and it includes data from 1979 to 2019. I think you can see the trend of the bottom forty paying less, then less than zero, while the top twenty percent's portion has increased significantly.
Historical Shares of Federal Tax Liabilities for All Households
Shares of federal tax liabilities for all households, by comprehensive household income quintile.
EDIT: Forgot to include how the income quintiles have varied over the years. In 2021 the forty percent breakpoint was $55,000. Link:
Household Income Quintiles
Income limits and mean income for each quintile of household income, 1967 through 2021.
If you paid a shitload of taxes in your self-disclosed income range, you are special. Thank you for your contributions to our nation's operations.
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TerryP
Staff
From my perspective, people didn't like Hillary and that has tainted their views and opinions on Bill.
Both Clintons pushed for national healthcare out of the gate, and they failed. Then Republicans got the House and Bill was smart enough to triangulate and compromise. Hillary has never appeared to be one for compromise.
Usually, First Couples eventually reveal their true selves to their protective details. Hillary showed herself to be a nasty person.
ElephantStomp
Member
@It Takes Eleven I’m replying to you this way rather than quoting your post because this is much easier.
I’m not going to go back and forth with you about my taxes, but I can tell you I paid a shitload in taxes and whether you believe that to be true or is not my concern.
As for my ranching operation- it doesn’t fall under that same tax bracket, I pay even more to the federal government, but obviously the total income from that is higher, but over 98% of all ranching operations break even.
As for your remark about my knowing my ex wife’s financials and all that- she doesn’t work and hasn’t worked, so it’s not real difficult to figure out her financials. She can’t get EIC or the child credit, our kids are adults
I’m not going to go back and forth with you about my taxes, but I can tell you I paid a shitload in taxes and whether you believe that to be true or is not my concern.
As for my ranching operation- it doesn’t fall under that same tax bracket, I pay even more to the federal government, but obviously the total income from that is higher, but over 98% of all ranching operations break even.
As for your remark about my knowing my ex wife’s financials and all that- she doesn’t work and hasn’t worked, so it’s not real difficult to figure out her financials. She can’t get EIC or the child credit, our kids are adults
TerryP
Staff
You are assuming he doesn't know what tax bracket ranching operations fall under? It's so ironic you are upset the other day when accusing Tim of "you don't know who I am." And yet, here you are telling him about tax brackets.
I'm never in the lack finding things to laugh at...a nice bonus this morning.
ElephantStomp
Member
Holy shit man. He fucking asked me, I didn’t just provide the damn info as an assumption he doesn’t know, he asked. I’m very well aware he’s an expert (as you told me), but he asked me. So you can laugh, but while laughing I’d suggest you read prior to commenting to meYou are assuming he doesn't know what tax bracket ranching operations fall under? It's so ironic you are upset the other day when accusing Tim of "you don't know who I am." And yet, here you are telling him about tax brackets.
I'm never in the lack finding things to laugh at...a nice bonus this morning.
I'm sure it's easier, because you ignored several of my points that you can't counter. First, a significant minority in your stated income range of less than $59,000 pay any Federal income taxes. Second, millions and millions of households get net payments from the Federal government through their filings.
I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying you're an outlier.
I am having a little trouble following you in a few areas. You said "over 98% of all ranching operations break even", but then you said your ranching operation is in a different bracket. Are you part of the less than two percent that's profitable to a larger degree? Why wouldn't the ranching income not be part of the income that puts you in the lower half of earners?
TerryP
Staff
You're assuming I haven't read the entire thread. Holy shit, man. All I said was I found it ironic.
I know his CV.
Which...that comment I just made makes me pause.
You've told us about your studies, your ranching. Have you ever asked Tim what he does for a living?
ElephantStomp
Member
I didn’t ignore anything, I read your points. I’m sorry you feel somebody should always attempt to “counter” your points. Believe it or not not everything is a damn debate.
ElephantStomp
Member
You didn’t say you found it ironic. You said I was assuming he didn’t know about tax brackets and shit.
I’m aware you know his CV hence why you told me he’s an expert.
I’ve not asked him what he does for a living, I can converse/debate people without knowing their CV. But, I know he’s an expert federal government because again you told me
You're the one who said you enjoy the debate...you called bullshit on something, with a whopping perspective that didn't go past the end of your nose. You said you paid a shitload of taxes while being in the bottom half of earners, and I pointed out how that would place you in a distinct minority to do so.
You've then ignored any clarification of why your ranching would be separate from your income (different "bracket"). Are you an investor in a ranch, a part owner in a ranch, a worker at a family ranch, a ranch hand? Something doesn't add up as to why the ranch income wouldn't be yours to file.
That's why I asked the follow up. People who are animated enough to call bullshit on something usually will attempt to defend their position...unless it just raises more questions.
So, bullshit and shitload are your final retorts in this matter?
TerryP
Staff
Then why have you mentioned your education in different discussions?
ElephantStomp
Member
Let me rephrase it- I don’t need to ask anybody what they do, if they want to share what they do great, but I don’t need to ask anybody
ElephantStomp
Member
I don’t give a damn whether you think it puts me in this category or some other category.
The company is separate from my professional income, why? No damn clue, that’s how the tax company does it.
I co-own the ranch with my uncle and that could be why it’s different because his company (the ranch company) is way bigger than mine. Again no damn clue, people are paid to handle the finance and taxes.
To clarify I don’t have to clarify my tax situation, I know what the hell I pay myself on taxes
