G
Guest
srollins said:
Yeah just forget the fact they played :lol:
I guess 5 in row was all due to schedule
| FTBL Great article regarding Johnson/GaTech
- Thread starter musso
- Start date
Yeah just forget the fact they played :lol:
I guess 5 in row was all due to schedule
Lenny Kozlowski said:
I'm sure 5 in a row wasn't due to schedule. There were certainly other mitigating factors.
Consider our 6 game slide against Auburn. Some of it was bad coaching
, some of it was player attrition, last year was due in no small part to bad attitudes on the part of many players that should have been leaders :evil: and, as much as I hate to say it, there was at least one of those where we were beaten because we were just plain out-played by better players. But, I sure wouldn't want Wing-Nut as a coach, just like I wouldn't want Johnson. JMHOCheers
G
Guest
Lenny Kozlowski said:
If you knew anything about D1AA fooball, you would be familiar with the SOUTHLAND FOOTBALL LEAGUE. You want to attack my credibility when you don't even know the name of a conference? The Southern Conference is probably the best 1AA conference, and has several teams that would have beaten Delaware (Appy State did, Furman and Wofford would have)...the Southland is made up of primarily Texas and Louisiana teams that routinely beat 1A teams. There are 3 teams in the Southland that would probably have beaten Delaware...and the point you missed is that 3 conference losses will not get you into the playoffs from the Southland or the OVC. Nichols state ws 6-5 last year (mostly conference losses) but they beat Rice in Houston. McNeese beat a 1A team. Northwestern State was one of the worst teams in the SFL, but almost beat Ole Miss. The SFL teams beat up on each other during the regular season and even though they are not the best 1AA conference, Delaware would not have made the playoffs from the SFL. I doubt that they would have made the playoffs from the Big Sky or Gateway conferences. The two division system allowed them to slip into the playoffs with 3 conference losses.
My point about the schedule remains. Navy plays a significantly weaker schedule than USAF. If you don't think that it affects the outcome of their game, you have not played or watched much football. Navy is able to focus on Air Force, while USAF is focusing on TCU and BYU. Air Force played Utah, TCU, and BYU, then Navy. Navy played Ball State and Duke, followed by USAF at home. Big difference.
As for past results, Johnson was lucky enough to catch Deberry on the downswing of his career, though Johnson did lose to him 48-7 in 2002...not unlike how Tubby has been lucky to be at Auburn during some rough years for us.
G
Guest
You gotta be kidding.....THEY MADE THE FINALS!!!!!! THEY WENT ON THE ROAD AND BEAT THE #1 and#4 SEEDS!!!
That Southland conference had one good team McNesse St.They only lost in the first round (at home) 44-15 My apoligies if you really intended to use the Southland conference (I assumed you meant the Southern Con because they were actually a good league unlike the Southland your trying to prop up) Delawares confernce had 2 of the final 4 and 5 of the 16 invited. :lol: They clearly have a weak league and that Southland is strong...Undeafeated McNesse gets BLOWN out (at home) in round 1!! Meanwhile the Colonial (delawares league) had New Hampshire (lost in round 1 at #1 seed 38-35) Delaware (won 3 games before losing in the title game) UMass (won 1 game before losing on the road to #4seed S.ILL 34-27) James Madison (lost in round 1 at eventual winner Appy ST 28-27) and Richmond (won 2 games before losing to Appy St 55-35)
So tell me about this DIAA (its not even called that anymore) I clearly have no clue and you know it up and down.
So far your arguements have consisted of- Navy beat AF 5 straight times (but AF would go undefeated with Navys scheldule)
-Delaware shouldnt have made the playoffs (yet they go on the road and defeat the #1 seed and #4 seeds) to reach the finals.
-And The Southland conference vs the Colonial :shock:
Hell after looking.... I think Delaware clearly played in the hardest league PERIOD. (including the SOCON)
How many games would McNesse have lost in Delawares league is my question?
That Southland conference had one good team McNesse St.They only lost in the first round (at home) 44-15 My apoligies if you really intended to use the Southland conference (I assumed you meant the Southern Con because they were actually a good league unlike the Southland your trying to prop up) Delawares confernce had 2 of the final 4 and 5 of the 16 invited. :lol: They clearly have a weak league and that Southland is strong...Undeafeated McNesse gets BLOWN out (at home) in round 1!! Meanwhile the Colonial (delawares league) had New Hampshire (lost in round 1 at #1 seed 38-35) Delaware (won 3 games before losing in the title game) UMass (won 1 game before losing on the road to #4seed S.ILL 34-27) James Madison (lost in round 1 at eventual winner Appy ST 28-27) and Richmond (won 2 games before losing to Appy St 55-35)
So tell me about this DIAA (its not even called that anymore) I clearly have no clue and you know it up and down.
So far your arguements have consisted of- Navy beat AF 5 straight times (but AF would go undefeated with Navys scheldule)
-Delaware shouldnt have made the playoffs (yet they go on the road and defeat the #1 seed and #4 seeds) to reach the finals.
-And The Southland conference vs the Colonial :shock:
Hell after looking.... I think Delaware clearly played in the hardest league PERIOD. (including the SOCON)
How many games would McNesse have lost in Delawares league is my question?
G
Guest
Lenny Kozlowski said:
You still completely miss the point.
3 conference losses should not get you in the playoffs, no matter what conference you play in. The only reason it did last year was because of a divisional tie.
Hawaii went undefeated in their crappy conference. Had Hawaii been in the SEC, what would their record have been? Delaware lost 3 games in the regular season to D1AA opposition. One loss was to New Hampshire (7-5), one to Richmond (41-14 losers to Vandy), and to 7-4 Villanova.
For all of your talking about propping up, have you considered that you started this discussion by making excuses for the pathetic loss Navy suffered to a 1AA team? Your whole argument is for the purpose of "propping up" Navy, a team whose 8 wins were over:
Temple 4-8
Duke 1-11
USAF 9-4
Pitt 5-7
Notre Dame 3-9
North Texas 2-10
Northern Illinois 2-10
Army 3-9
Navy beat ONE team with a winning record - Air Force. Sure they beat USAF head to head, but the fact that their schedule was mostly creampuffs helped...and they LOST to a D1AA school. (the only people who use that "subdivision" nonsense is the NCAA)
Air Force on the other hand beat Army and Notre Dame, as well as TCU and Utah (who beat Navy in their bowl). The Navy/USAF game was played AT Navy, and USAF was coming off a very difficult 3 game stretch where they faced 3 bowl teams - 2 on the road (who all won their bowls). 3 out of 4 games were road games against bowl teams. There is no argument that this affected the outcome of the Navy/Air Force game...and all of that is to say that you need to stop making excuses for Johnson being at an academy. Air Force has been winning pretty consistently for years. Deberry got old and retired and the coach who won 9 games this past season was in his FIRST season. Johnson was in his 6th.
On a side note...USAF played Hawai every year that Johnson was there as OC. USAF (a service academy) was 4-3-1 against him.
Paul Bryant had forgotten more about the triple option by 1980 than Johnson will ever know, and even he knew that it was time to move on. Option 3 may be passing the ball, but that won't work too well when you are having to settle on converted RB's at QB, and wide receivers who run a 5 flat.
With the ability of major D1 linemen to run down the QB and eliminating the +1 mismatch, one option is taken away and you can assign a rover to take the head off of the pitch man every play. Recruiting against UGA, Bama, Auburn, UF, Clemson, USC, and every other team surrounding Georgia will make it difficult to get OL who are fast enough to reach against ACC linemen. The option can speed up the game and keep it close, but it will rarely win a game against a disciplined team with better athletes. With the game sped up, turnovers become amplified, but the option can be a liability in that regard if the defense is fast enough. Against bad teams it is not.
Time will tell who is right on this argument, but I am so glad that he is not here I cannot express it. Had we gotten Johnson, we would be looking for a coach in a few years...and our talent level would be through the floor. At least if Saban leaves in 5, we will be loaded.
G
Guest
You tried to tell me that Delaware wouldnt have made
the playoffs in the Southland (or OVC)
After PROVING to anybody willing to except facts that Delaware CLEARLY played in a superior league you still claim otherwise :roll: (the conference foes beat up on each other...remember your arguement for the Southland :lol: That league is like comparing the SEC to C-USA)
NAVY BEAT AF 5 times and you still give me the AF spill about scheldule. :roll: :roll: Something tells me AF prob takes the NAvy game serious every year regardless of schedule.
I made a case that Delaware wasnt a horrible loss by showing you they made the finals (with an NFL QB)
Ive never claimed Johnson would be successful at G'Tech.
Your lack of respect for what he did at NAvy is clueless though.
the playoffs in the Southland (or OVC)
After PROVING to anybody willing to except facts that Delaware CLEARLY played in a superior league you still claim otherwise :roll: (the conference foes beat up on each other...remember your arguement for the Southland :lol: That league is like comparing the SEC to C-USA)
NAVY BEAT AF 5 times and you still give me the AF spill about scheldule. :roll: :roll: Something tells me AF prob takes the NAvy game serious every year regardless of schedule.
I made a case that Delaware wasnt a horrible loss by showing you they made the finals (with an NFL QB)
Ive never claimed Johnson would be successful at G'Tech.
Your lack of respect for what he did at NAvy is clueless though.
G
Guest
Lenny Kozlowski said:
(1) 3 losses would not get you into the playoffs from any conference. You still don't get that. I don't care how difficult their conference is...3 conference losses is normally an automatic DQ...their even making the playoffs was a freak thing due to a divisional tie moving them from 3rd in their division to 3rd in the conference.
(2) If you believe that about the Southland, you really are hopeless. The comparison is more ACC to Big 12 numerous SFL teams have played for NC's in the past 20 years. Again you draw bad parallels showing that you know little about D1AA ball. If you don't know anything about it, don't try to talk about it like you do.
(3) Auburn beat Alabama 6 times...is Tubby Great? USAF had a coach on the way out and a new coach this past season. A lot of teams beat them in the past 4 seasons...this past season they were the better team, but the better team does not always win. Dadgummit man, are you really so dense as to not get the point? The 1989 Iron Bowl was won by Auburn even though Alabama was the better team. Who played in the Sugar Bowl in 1990? Navy lost in the Poinsetta bowl to the Utah team that Air Force beat in the regular season ...USAF played Cal in the Armed Forces Bowl.
(4) Any loss to a D1AA school is terrible and you making excuses for Johnson because he is at an academy is a joke. Navy has almost half again as many scholarships and 100000 times more tradition than Delaware. Navy losing to Delaware is on par with Bama losing to ULM. Quit it with the excuse making for Johnson. The way you are talking out of both sides of your mouth is embarrassing. You are propping up a crap loss to a crap opponent and attacking me for "propping up" on other issues. If I were you, I would quit now.
(5) Johnson did not do anything that other coaches at academies have already done, he just did it at Navy against an incredibly easy schedule. The crap schedule was the biggest factor to his success.
An argument could be made that the George Welsh 1980 team that beat:
Boston College
Washington
Syracuse
Ga. Tech
Welsh won 9,7,8, and 7 games in 1978-81, playing a much tougher schedule. In those years there were not 5,000 bowl games played against the 3rd place MAC teams. 7 wins did not get you in a bowl game against a Sun Belt team. Jim Young at Army had an 8 win team and a pair of 9 win teams in the mid to late 80's. We had to come from behind to beat Army by 1 point in the 88 Sun Bowl.
All that said, I know that there are obstacles to winning at academies, but some people act like what Johnson did at Navy was nothing short of a Miracle, when Navy, Army, and Air Force have all three had some good runs in the modern era - playing a tougher schedule and not losing to Delaware. Army and Air Force have both ponied up and joined conferences. Navy plays the weakest schedule of the three and it was a major contributing factor to Johnson's success - like it or not.
At Georgia Tech, Johnson will have better talent, but his recruiting will be seriously hampered by the perception of a run first option offense. That is not speculation, it happened in his first class when Chris Jackson decommitted from Tech and signed with us. Those who know the actual mechanics of football and how/why plays do and don't work, know why the true triple option offense is not employed in the modern era. Those who don't know will find out by watching Tech over the next 4 years (assuming Johnson stays true to what he has said).
G
Guest
(1) IT DID HAPPEN from that weak league that got 5 bids :wink: (how many times are you gonna post something this stupid)
(2)
You made the stupid post about Delwares league vs the Southland and OVC (again my statement was proven correct) Yet you claim Im the hopeless one
(3)I never said Johnson was great.....and I would also tell you Tubby isnt bad either. :wink: I would also disagree with Aub not being the best team in 89. They beat us badly. It wasnt a fluke win (of course you prob will tell me that we had a schedule that caused us to lose that game)
(4) yeah, ive really been proven wrong alot in this thread. :roll: I should quit raking you over the coals but its easy...... Navy should win that game but for you to act like it compares to La Monroe is laughable.
(5) you jumped around so much in this one, Im not even going to waste my time. What Johnson does or doesnt do at Tech is meaningless when looking at his Navy career.
(2)
You made the stupid post about Delwares league vs the Southland and OVC (again my statement was proven correct) Yet you claim Im the hopeless one
(3)I never said Johnson was great.....and I would also tell you Tubby isnt bad either. :wink: I would also disagree with Aub not being the best team in 89. They beat us badly. It wasnt a fluke win (of course you prob will tell me that we had a schedule that caused us to lose that game)
(4) yeah, ive really been proven wrong alot in this thread. :roll: I should quit raking you over the coals but its easy...... Navy should win that game but for you to act like it compares to La Monroe is laughable.
(5) you jumped around so much in this one, Im not even going to waste my time. What Johnson does or doesnt do at Tech is meaningless when looking at his Navy career.
G
Guest
Lenny Kozlowski said:(3)I never said Johnson was great.....and I would also tell you Tubby isnt bad either. :wink: I would also disagree with Aub not being the best team in 89. They beat us badly. It wasnt a fluke win (of course you prob will tell me that we had a schedule that caused us to lose that game)
The only thing you posted that I am going to justify with a response is Auburn being the best team in 89. I am going to take it easy on you with this one because I know that you are probably not old enough to remember the 89 Iron bowl very well. Alabama was the favorite going in, even though the game was played in Jordan Hare for the first time ever. Alabama was undefeated and 6-0 in the SEC, while the barn was a one loss team. Auburn and Alabama both had good defenses, but Alabama's offense was considered one of the best in the nation while Auburn's was terrible. Auburn won by 10, but the game was far from a domination...Statistically, we were almost identical. If I remember correctly, we both had around 400-450 yards of offense. Alabama had more first downs. We could not run the ball and had a couple of inopportune turnovers that cost us the game.
FWIW, I was being recruited by Auburn at the time but was not able to go to the game because I was visiting somewhere else.
Your little snipes about schedule affecting results of peripheral games really waxes ignorant. It does.
G
Guest
I was at the 89 game and remember it well. They whipped us!
TerryP
Staff
Big_Fan said:Lenny Kozlowski said:(3)I never said Johnson was great.....and I would also tell you Tubby isnt bad either. :wink: I would also disagree with Aub not being the best team in 89. They beat us badly. It wasnt a fluke win (of course you prob will tell me that we had a schedule that caused us to lose that game)
The only thing you posted that I am going to justify with a response is Auburn being the best team in 89. I am going to take it easy on you with this one because I know that you are probably not old enough to remember the 89 Iron bowl very well. Alabama was the favorite going in, even though the game was played in Jordan Hare for the first time ever. Alabama was undefeated and 6-0 in the SEC, while the barn was a one loss team. Auburn and Alabama both had good defenses, but Alabama's offense was considered one of the best in the nation while Auburn's was terrible. Auburn won by 10, but the game was far from a domination...Statistically, we were almost identical. If I remember correctly, we both had around 400-450 yards of offense. Alabama had more first downs. We could not run the ball and had a couple of inopportune turnovers that cost us the game.
FWIW, I was being recruited by Auburn at the time but was not able to go to the game because I was visiting somewhere else.
Your little snipes about schedule affecting results of peripheral games really waxes ignorant. It does.
4th page
G
Guest
TerryP said:Big_Fan said:Lenny Kozlowski said:(3)I never said Johnson was great.....and I would also tell you Tubby isnt bad either. :wink: I would also disagree with Aub not being the best team in 89. They beat us badly. It wasnt a fluke win (of course you prob will tell me that we had a schedule that caused us to lose that game)
The only thing you posted that I am going to justify with a response is Auburn being the best team in 89. I am going to take it easy on you with this one because I know that you are probably not old enough to remember the 89 Iron bowl very well. Alabama was the favorite going in, even though the game was played in Jordan Hare for the first time ever. Alabama was undefeated and 6-0 in the SEC, while the barn was a one loss team. Auburn and Alabama both had good defenses, but Alabama's offense was considered one of the best in the nation while Auburn's was terrible. Auburn won by 10, but the game was far from a domination...Statistically, we were almost identical. If I remember correctly, we both had around 400-450 yards of offense. Alabama had more first downs. We could not run the ball and had a couple of inopportune turnovers that cost us the game.
FWIW, I was being recruited by Auburn at the time but was not able to go to the game because I was visiting somewhere else.
Your little snipes about schedule affecting results of peripheral games really waxes ignorant. It does.
4th page
About like I thought...less than 20 yards difference in total offense. Bama had more first downs. Bama was -1 in turnovers and that accounted for 7 of the 10 point margin. It was a tough game and by no means a whipping. Had it been on a neutral field, Bama would probably have won. J-H was rocking that day and it was such a hard ticket that even the number of prospects attending was limited. I went to the JSU/Angelo State semifinal playoff game that day.
G
Guest
We gave up 30 points. I remember they had a back rush for over 100 yards. (Danley or Joesph maybe) and Alexander Wright torched our secondary that day. (he prob had 150 yards or so receiving) It was a butt whipping anyway youd like to sugar coat it.I dont remember us ever being in position to win that game in the 4th quarter. Maybe Im wrong on that but I doubt it.
G
Guest
Lenny Kozlowski said:
We were ranked #2 in the nation and 10-0 going in. Hollingsworth *almost* had a career day against them as well...340 yards passing and 2 TD's. 2 interceptions hurt us, as did a fumble. They had 167 yards rushing, but that was not what hurt us. Top to bottom, we were the better team...but Auburn won. It was the first ever Iron Bowl in Jordan Hare and the barners were foaming at the mouth. There were next to no tickets available for Bama fans to get, and the stadium was extremely hostile. We were favored and undefeated. We were the better team on paper...but the better team does not always win - and that was my point. It happens every year...a perfect storm. Auburn played inspired and Curry was not a good gameday coach. It happens...Was ULM better than us? No...but they beat us. They should enjoy it because it will not happen again. The thing that bothers me the most about Navy losing to Delaware is that it happened two of the last 3 times they played and Johnson was the coach both times.
Air Force was better than Navy last season, but not on the day they played. There were numerous factors that contributed to it...3 road games in 4 weeks and 4 consecutive games against bowl teams had a lot to do with it. They were coming off of a bad loss at BYU where they got pretty beat up, and the next week they had to go play a rival game AT Annapolis. That is not making excuses or propping USAF up...it is the real story surrounding the game. Why do Bama fans get so mad about most of our SEC opponents having an off week before us if it is not relevant? The reason is because it IS relevant. Against Duke, Navy jumped out to a big lead and got to rest their starters. Air Force did not have that luxury...and the real point is not USAF being BETTER than Navy, the point is that Johnson did not do anything that has not been done before.
USAF is good almost every year (Deberry's last few seasons aside), and they won 9 games last season against a tougher schedule. Army and Navy both have had good teams in the past. Johnson has zero experience as a head coach or even as an assistant at a major program in a competitive conference. He had mediocre success as an OC at Hawaii...his offense set a few records one season - but so did Mike Shula's. Johnson's offense also contributed to a staff being fired; his 1994 Hawaii offense was terrible.
I believe that Johnson is a great lower division coach, and his offense is good for talent starved programs that play weak schedules. I don't feel that he will have any success recruiting, and in four years Tech will have a serious talent deficit. There is enough talent on their defensive side of the ball to win some games this season, and they have some athletes on offense. They may have a decent run for a year or two simply because they have some athletes...but I don't see him having long term success. There are too many weaknesses in the triple option attack for it to be successful in modern day football, and he is going to have recruiting problems. According to scout, they finished 8th in the ACC in recruiting. I don't see that improving.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.
G
Guest
Well, I cant make you believe that Aub was a better team.......and yes we were favored and probably the better team on paper GOING INTO the game. However, after all the facts and figures were in we werent.
We tied with them for the SEC ( the Sugar Bowl choose us in no small part that AUB had been in the SUGAR bowl 2 years previous)
We finished with identical records. They finshed ahead of us in both the final polls.
and they whipped us by 10 points head to head. Tells me they were a better team (as it would to anybody without crimson colored glasses)
Ive never claimed that schedule isnt a contributing factor but its ONLY AN EXCUSE is the bottom line.
and again NAVY BEAT AF 5 straight times. THATS NOT FLUKING WINS!!! THe have won the commander in chief trophy, I dont even know how many times in a row.
We tied with them for the SEC ( the Sugar Bowl choose us in no small part that AUB had been in the SUGAR bowl 2 years previous)
We finished with identical records. They finshed ahead of us in both the final polls.
and they whipped us by 10 points head to head. Tells me they were a better team (as it would to anybody without crimson colored glasses)
Ive never claimed that schedule isnt a contributing factor but its ONLY AN EXCUSE is the bottom line.
and again NAVY BEAT AF 5 straight times. THATS NOT FLUKING WINS!!! THe have won the commander in chief trophy, I dont even know how many times in a row.
G
Guest
Lenny Kozlowski said:
Good enough to win the CIC trophy and beat a very good USAF team, but not good enough to beat a 3 loss D1AA team (who they lost to 2 out of 3 years). That sounds like a coaching issue...and trying to build up the D1AA team into something more than they are is just making excuses.
