🏈 There's one "reason" for these satellite camps that's been given that really ticks me off.

[planomateo]

I believe Harbaugh is a whining, sniveling and lazy lightweight who is unwilling to put in the work necessary in normal recruiting to gain the edge that some other coaches such as Coach Saban, Coach Meyer, Coach Fischer and some others have attained. Many long hours of hard work in normal recruiting is what yields an advantage in talent on the field. Instead of hard work in normal recruiting, Harbaugh would rather spend his time getting lazier and fatter picking players out of a pool of recruits assembled by others at these camps.
TerryP pointed out the holes in the main arguments for camps in an earlier post. The argument for the camps is that it will give some kids a better chance at going to bigger ,better schools like Michigan. That is a smokescreen, bullshit probably fits better. There are a finite number of scholarships available for each school to award players. There will be the same number of kids who get scholarships and the same that don't no matter who gets them. I am not a gambler but in the world of gambling, is there more money lost or won? Simple, It's equal, what's lost is won by somebody and what's won is lost by somebody.

Travelling to 30 camps is lazy?? He's just thinking outside of the box, those coaches you name above also push the envelope. If Saban had started the idea of satellite camps, there would be a completely different tune here along with other Alabama forums and we'd all eat up the hate the other fan bases slung our way.

It does allow for easier travel schedule by parents/potential student athletes to be seen by many more coaches in a quicker time frame. Some will get an opportunity they might not have had and others won't.

 

[TerryP]

This isn't about the basket case up north (or is he overseas today?) It's not how some are passing it off as something other than recruiting.

What really gets on my nerves is this narrative "these camps create opportunities." It sounds good to those who know little about the game or those who've chosen not to really think about the whole thing.

Simply put, these people are forgetting that this is a zero sum game. For every scholarship given, someone is missing out on one. No one I've seen point to the FACT that the number of scholarships is the same today, as it was yesterday, last year ... and will be the same tomorrow.

My sense was that there was agreement between PCRammer and Tidestalker whereas Terry was taking a pessimistic view of these camps.

 

[TerryP]

And this is where I think we get into trouble.

I've heard no argument to persuade me otherwise.

My response is if there is demand among recruits to attend these camps, then these camps are obviously in the interests of the recruits and of those programs ambitious and innovative enough to serve them. Who are we to prohibit the consent of others? To Saban's point, the NCAA needs to reform itself,

I've said the same thing here throughout this whole story.

if you ask me the NCAA needs to go entirely and the NFL needs to man up and purchase the rights to administer this "minor league" itself, without the continued charade of selling notions of academic integrity.

:slap8:

 

[Tidestalker]

I believe Harbaugh is a whining, sniveling and lazy lightweight who is unwilling to put in the work necessary in normal recruiting to gain the edge that some other coaches such as Coach Saban, Coach Meyer, Coach Fischer and some others have attained. Many long hours of hard work in normal recruiting is what yields an advantage in talent on the field. Instead of hard work in normal recruiting, Harbaugh would rather spend his time getting lazier and fatter picking players out of a pool of recruits assembled by others at these camps.
TerryP pointed out the holes in the main arguments for camps in an earlier post. The argument for the camps is that it will give some kids a better chance at going to bigger ,better schools like Michigan. That is a smokescreen, bullshit probably fits better. There are a finite number of scholarships available for each school to award players. There will be the same number of kids who get scholarships and the same that don't no matter who gets them. I am not a gambler but in the world of gambling, is there more money lost or won? Simple, It's equal, what's lost is won by somebody and what's won is lost by somebody.

OK - But the point is to be the winner, and not the loser. So everyone is looking for an advantage...

And if all of you complaining about these camps don't see it as an advantage/disadvantage situation, THEN WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT?

Bottom line for me - I see any situation that allows high school athletes for more exposure, it could lead to more opportunities... And IMO that is almost always a good thing. Other than that, college football is simply big business and there are very few things truly fair about it... So any more "rules" the NCAA wish to put in place are more for political correctness then genuine care for the student athletes.

I know Saban likes to champion himself as a proponent for the betterment of student athletes, and in many ways I'm sure this is true, but it's not like he's going to take a pay cut or sacrifice himself in any way for the greater good. And generally, he does a magical job using the media for his own gain and/or the Alabama football programs greater good... Which is what he should be doing.

 

[TerryP]

Bottom line for me - I see any situation that allows high school athletes for more exposure, it could lead to more better opportunities...

 

[Tidestalker]

Mo-Betta :rolf:

 

[UAgrad93]

I see the opportunity for some kids to be seen in these camps that normally wouldn't have the chance to go to a 3-4 day camp at an Alabama or Michigan. Camp cost is $450+, then you have the expense of getting there. Meanwhile, these one day satellite camps are $40-50 apiece.
I also see what Saban has said, who paid for this kid to camp? Who is this person that is approaching me about this kid? Parent, coach, handler, mentor, 7v7 coach, etc. Saban uses his camps to get those kids on campus and sell his program and his school. A satellite camp in Binghamton, NY does Saban no good in that area.

 

[OldPlayer]

Giving a kid a better chance? I believe that every college coaching staff knows who the potential recruits are and knows what high school they play for. They see the kids on tape and they see them in person. Many kids are found when a coach is looking at tape of another kid. What additional opportunity exists? Are these really camps where someone can go to develop their skills or are these tryouts?

 

[Tidestalker]

Giving a kid a better chance? I believe that every college coaching staff knows who the potential recruits are and knows what high school they play for. They see the kids on tape and they see them in person. Many kids are found when a coach is looking at tape of another kid. What additional opportunity exists? Are these really camps where someone can go to develop their skills or are these tryouts?

You realize that Alabama offers many kids at their own camp year in & year out after getting to evaluate them in person?

Get a better feel for someone's size/speed/athleticism in person than on tape.

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

You realize that Alabama offers many kids at their own camp year in & year out after getting to evaluate them in person?

Get a better feel for someone's size/speed/athleticism in person than on tape.

I think you're still missing the forest for all the trees.

The issue here is not with what you stated. It's with these remote in-person tryouts, as @OldPlayer aptly stated, that are orchestrated during recruiting periods where in-person contact is prohibited, and then painting them as "camps" to "benefit kids that wouldn't be able to attend our camps here in Michigan".

 

[OldPlayer]

You realize that Alabama offers many kids at their own camp year in & year out after getting to evaluate them in person?

Get a better feel for someone's size/speed/athleticism in person than on tape.

I'm not saying camps should be eliminated. I'm saying that coaches already have ways of evaluating players. They hear about a kid and request tape. They like the tape and see him in person. They visit with the kid to determine if he has the character needed. Does the world need more camps set up by a third party? These third parties will promote the camp as a way to be noticed and get a scholarship. Now kids are scrounging for money to attend multiple camps that are marketed by people with no connection to schools (and college coaches can't communicate with because they are third parties). They're marketed as "opportunities" but in reality they are preying on kids that don't know or understand the recruiting rules. Not everyone can attend Alabama's camp(s). But, if the talent is there, CNS will find a way to evaluate him.

 

[BamaFan334]

I'm not saying camps should be eliminated. I'm saying that coaches already have ways of evaluating players. They hear about a kid and request tape. They like the tape and see him in person. They visit with the kid to determine if he has the character needed. Does the world need more camps set up by a third party? These third parties will promote the camp as a way to be noticed and get a scholarship. Now kids are scrounging for money to attend multiple camps that are marketed by people with no connection to schools (and college coaches can't communicate with because they are third parties). They're marketed as "opportunities" but in reality they are preying on kids that don't know or understand the recruiting rules. Not everyone can attend Alabama's camp(s). But, if the talent is there, CNS will find a way to evaluate him.

Could not agree more here. Just another party cashing in.

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

I'm not saying camps should be eliminated. I'm saying that coaches already have ways of evaluating players. They hear about a kid and request tape. They like the tape and see him in person. They visit with the kid to determine if he has the character needed. Does the world need more camps set up by a third party? These third parties will promote the camp as a way to be noticed and get a scholarship. Now kids are scrounging for money to attend multiple camps that are marketed by people with no connection to schools (and college coaches can't communicate with because they are third parties). They're marketed as "opportunities" but in reality they are preying on kids that don't know or understand the recruiting rules. Not everyone can attend Alabama's camp(s). But, if the talent is there, CNS will find a way to evaluate him.

Agreed.

 

[Tidestalker]

I'm not saying camps should be eliminated. I'm saying that coaches already have ways of evaluating players. They hear about a kid and request tape. They like the tape and see him in person. They visit with the kid to determine if he has the character needed. Does the world need more camps set up by a third party? These third parties will promote the camp as a way to be noticed and get a scholarship. Now kids are scrounging for money to attend multiple camps that are marketed by people with no connection to schools (and college coaches can't communicate with because they are third parties). They're marketed as "opportunities" but in reality they are preying on kids that don't know or understand the recruiting rules. Not everyone can attend Alabama's camp(s). But, if the talent is there, CNS will find a way to evaluate him.

You're trying to bash the free market and I don't know why. Are you fighting for "fairness" in the name of NCAA football? If so there are legitimate issues to discuss - This isn't one of them. Are you trying to save kids money? If so, I don't get it.

No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and making them spend their own money. Are the camps marketed as something unrealistic? Maybe. But isn't almost everything we buy? Do you believe in people making money or is that your business? I trust that if people aren't getting their return on investment, the business won't last. If they are, it will be successful.

I have no problem with people spending their own money however they please. But maybe we have a different mentality in this area which would probably end up in a political debate.... Don't want to go there.

 

[Tidestalker]

I think you're still missing the forest for all the trees.

The issue here is not with what you stated. It's with these remote in-person tryouts, as @OldPlayer aptly stated, that are orchestrated during recruiting periods where in-person contact is prohibited, and then painting them as "camps" to "benefit kids that wouldn't be able to attend our camps here in Michigan".

I'm not missing anything... Just responded to Oldplayers point.

As to your point, it doesn't bother me at all that kids are being evaluated in "prohibited" periods. NCAA rules are a joke and make little to no sense in the first place.

If the kids want to travel/pay/participate in a football camp, why would any of us have a problem with that? Sheesh...

 

[Tidestalker]

I'm not saying camps should be eliminated. I'm saying that coaches already have ways of evaluating players. They hear about a kid and request tape. They like the tape and see him in person. They visit with the kid to determine if he has the character needed. Does the world need more camps set up by a third party?

If the camps weren't helpful, why would college coaches attend them?

 

[OldPlayer]

You're trying to bash the free market and I don't know why. Are you fighting for "fairness" in the name of NCAA football? Are you trying to save kids money? I don't get it. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and making them spend their own money. Are the camps marketed as something unrealistic? Maybe. But isn't almost everything we buy? Do you believe in people making money or is that your business? I trust that if people aren't getting their return on investment, the business won't last. But maybe we have a different mentality in this area which would probably end up in a political debate.... Don't want to go there.

I'm saying that if Joe Schmo sets up a "camp" and invites a coach to participate, it almost automatically creates an NCAA violation. It's different if CNS sets up a camp and invites Harbaugh, Meyer or anybody else to participate because there will be compliance staff making sure that everything is a-ok. CNS is not an outside third party trying to showcase the kids' skills. The big debate stems from relaxed rules that allow coaches to participate in camps more than 50 miles from their campus. So now Harbaugh can go to Atlanta and participate in a camp put on by a third party. He's doing what is allowed, but could face NCAA violations if compliance isn't involved to monitor the interaction between Harbaugh, the camp organizer and the athlete. Or maybe it just allows a coach to violate the rule (using the third party) because there is no monitoring. That sounds like a conflict that some programs will take advantage of.

Have as many camps as you want. If the kids want to attend, let them. But all the camps can't be monitored for violations. Some will get caught, some won't. But there's nothing worse than being charged with a violation when you know others are doing it openly.

 

[Tidestalker]

I'm saying that if Joe Schmo sets up a "camp" and invites a coach to participate, it almost automatically creates an NCAA violation. It's different if CNS sets up a camp and invites Harbaugh, Meyer or anybody else to participate because there will be compliance staff making sure that everything is a-ok. CNS is not an outside third party trying to showcase the kids' skills. The big debate stems from relaxed rules that allow coaches to participate in camps more than 50 miles from their campus. So now Harbaugh can go to Atlanta and participate in a camp put on by a third party. He's doing what is allowed, but could face NCAA violations if compliance isn't involved to monitor the interaction between Harbaugh, the camp organizer and the athlete. Or maybe it just allows a coach to violate the rule (using the third party) because there is no monitoring. That sounds like a conflict that some programs will take advantage of.

Have as many camps as you want. If the kids want to attend, let them. But all the camps can't be monitored for violations. Some will get caught, some won't. But there's nothing worse than being charged with a violation when you know others are doing it openly.

I just don't see how this is any different from the big picture of NCAA operations... "some will get caught, some won't", "nothing worse than being charged with a violation when you know others are doing it openly" - This is no different from every other NCAA compliance issue. The system is all messed up, these camps are not a legitimate problem IMO and would do more good than bad considering its ultimately just kids playing more football and getting more exposure at the very least.

 

[musso]

I've heard no argument to persuade me otherwise.

Don't know if you noticed but I put in bold the part of your quote I was referring to. My argument follows quite clearly.

 

[TerryP]

Don't know if you noticed but I put in bold the part of your quote I was referring to. My argument follows quite clearly.

I read it clearly.