🏈 NCAA looking further into textbook scandal

[alagator]

Mal Moore has more Teflon than Gotti

If we so much as receive a letter of admonishment, then Mal Moore better be summarily and PUBLICALLY fired by Dr. Witt.

None of this 'it being the right time to retire' and 'we will hate to see Mal go' BS. FIRED for gross incompetence in hiring and oversight responsibilities.

Is Mal Moore more important than our institution?

And Dave Hart's record and involvement in the early events of the FSU cheating scandal does not give me great confidence that Moore's 'hand picked' successor is any better.

This time, I think BamaDelta's fears and worries might be valid.

 

[billfish]

Considering our recent adventures with the NCAA I'm sure there is a policy/protocol that the NCAA has to follow. A process as someone else mentioned. This has to be simply part of it and I respect the fact that they...UA.. decided to not release the info into the mouth of madness until they had delivered whatever they delivered. Serves no purpose to do so while incomplete. By saying it's ongoing....well it is and was. No deception. Why would they want to release this before recruiting...cause a war.....and then nothing major for the football team ever materializes. I say whoever keep it behind closed doors knew what they were dealing with and figured we had everything to lose and nothing to gain in this position.

I have to wonder why all the media Who Ha when in fact the NCAA reviewed and then re-instated the football players that were involved?

I have to believe that after all the chit we endured that UA and the others involved have the inside track this time and it was resolved. I think this next step is indeed part of their process, for a school which had the past issues, outlined in their protocols. I say it goes away. Those media boys can get things jumping in a hurry by snake handling and breathing fire. :wink: In no way, when I mention media, am I implying or referring to Cecil Hurt. He's probably the most reasonable sports writer in the state imo.

 

[Crimson Jangles]

"I have to wonder why all the media Who Ha when in fact the NCAA reviewed and then re-instated the football players that were involved? "

Check the calender, nothing else is going on in this state. And of course, anything concerning Alabama football will be discussed/dissected ad nauseum.

I do think you are onto something about this simply being a process and that the investigation was triggered by past infractions. I hope that's only it, but even so, the problem is that this extends the window by another 5 years.

BTW has that slap on the wrist made it's way to USC's campus? Or is the NCAA still 'investigating' the Reggie Bush case?

 

[alagator]

Terry...

One thing you could check for us while you do a little source mining.

What did Board of Trustees know about all this and when did they know it?

Telling would be the depth of knowledge they had about the complete facts before they voted on the Bryant-Denny expansion.

 

[Guest]

Terry...

One thing you could check for us while you do a little source mining.

What did Board of Trustees know about all this and when did they know it?

Telling would be the depth of knowledge they had about the complete facts before they voted on the Bryant-Denny expansion.

Good question. I thought of that as well. Are you implying that the BOT must feel positive about the upcoming NCAA results, gator?

My biggest concerns are the wording, as I mentioned earlier, and the fact they wanted us in person. It makes it seem like it was too serious to handle through the mail. Did they really want us to fly cross-country just to see our shining faces? We've already been to Indy once if not twice on this issue. Why out to San Diego? Too many questions in all of this.

 

[bamafan4ever]

It's got to concern you any time that NCAA and Alabama are mentioned in the same breath. Scares me a little to be honest with you. I'm not going to do what I did last time and live in a constant state of denial.

Do I think we get hammered over this? I really don't but the NCAA will show their ass in some sense. I fully expect to lose scholarships over this possibly numbering up to 5. That will extend the proverbial probation window and keep the program under the NCAA microscope. There are a lot of "member institutions" that are not as thrilled as Crimson Tide fans that BAMA got 2 number #1 recruiting classes. They simply don't like the direction of our program and I will never be convinced otherwise. The NCAA needs to be abolished but I know it's never going to happen in my lifetime.

Edit: One further thought, "member institutions" are still upset with the perceived arms race we started with the hire of Nick Saban. Right or wrong, Alabama continues to be demonized over Saban's salary in the media and the NCAA actually issued a derogatory blurb (Miles Brand) when Saban was hired. If we were off the NCAA hit list, it was only during the Shula regime when the team was mediocre.

 

[Crimson Jangles]

"No, I'm saying we'll see the same type article and report in the future with Andre as well.

There is no getting around the fact all of these athletes knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong.

There is no getting around the fact that there were no controls in place to keep it from happening.

I'm not saying Dever's office dropped the ball. I'm saying it wasn't picked up. The same goes for the system in place at the Supe Store."

I think we could see the NCAA try to investigate Smith simply because if they try to lower the boom on UA for what they have now, it's going to be damned hard to sell it publically. Even against UA.

My guess is that if the NCAA is WANTING to nail Bama, they'll follow the same playbook they did before, they will look to add in multiple ticky-tack events, to try to create a case for their being 'widespread' problems in the football program and/or athletic department.

But if they wait and bring up Smith later, they can make it look like they started investigating Bama because of the 'textbook scandal', and then they found Smith and whatever other minor stuff they can come up with. Then you could have their 'case' for why Bama needs to get hammered.

Hate to play doom/gloom, but we have to remember just how corrupt of an organization the NCAA is.

 

[BarnBurner]

So USC can have a RB and family stay in a million dollar home for free and seems to get swept under the rug. However we have some players sell a few books and they are still looking into the matter as a major violation. Interesting!

USC is by far the worst example of NCCA hypocrisy, but let's not forget about all the other universities that get away with murder. FSU had at least 30 players get the answers to tests and nothing major became of it. And let's not even mention the NCCA giving Auburn a free pass for their sociology classes, or lack thereof. Be proud at least our students need books. RTR!

 

[Guest]

The reported stated that no advantage/benefit was gained by the players, so what's the issue. The issue, I believe, is entirely on the revelation that the UA's compliance personnel were not at the Book Store when the athletes picked up books. HORRIBLE slippery slope.

This implies that the NCAA intended, but has to date not communicated adequately, its intention for school to monitor more of the athlete's lives. The fly in the ointment for the NCAA is that BAMA was doing MORE along the lines of compliance than virtually every University out there (Do you recall the praises that rained on Bama right before the axe fell?) So how can the find fault when 1) all the other well-intentions Universities were doing the same thing, and 2) AFTER the NCAA rolled in with a review. THE NCAA MISSED IT AS WELL OR THEY WOULD HAVE HAMMERED US FOR THIS TOO.

This is a "shaping action" for all of College football and the fact that THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA is involved makes it news.

 

[TerryP]

Mal Moore has more Teflon than Gotti

If we so much as receive a letter of admonishment, then Mal Moore better be summarily and PUBLICALLY fired by Dr. Witt.

None of this 'it being the right time to retire' and 'we will hate to see Mal go' BS. FIRED for gross incompetence in hiring and oversight responsibilities.

Is Mal Moore more important than our institution?

And Dave Hart's record and involvement in the early events of the FSU cheating scandal does not give me great confidence that Moore's 'hand picked' successor is any better.

This time, I think BamaDelta's fears and worries might be valid.

I realize where a lot of this comes from considering past comments on Moore and Hart.

I do feel that you are over-reacting in this situation, specifically with your comment, "FIRED for gross incompetence in hiring and oversight responsibilities."

That would be Moore fired for the hiring that occurred at the Supe Store where this breakdown in oversight occurred.

One could bring Dever into this, but again Moore didn't hire him so how is it "incompetence in hiring."

Oversight responsibilities?

I see that making a mountain out of a mole hill when you look at the situation in its context.

We are talking about a 10 yard walk between the customer/student service desk and the cash registers. This was so easily rectified. Seriously, all that was basically changed was "staple the bags and give them a receipt mark paid." That way, they don't have to have their book purchases checked out twice...which, they shouldn't have had done in the first place.

Dever and Shreve have both been issued permanent letters of reprimand and been hit where it hurts the most, their pocketbook. (I have to add that their salaries being frozen for a year is one of those penalties that one could question "if" they are actual penalties. I don't know the scope of said action, IE: if it effects retirement under the Alabama system, etc.)

All that said...

I suspect the University may "over-react." Not to the point you've mentioned - but - going back to something I posted on the first page of this thread.

The timing of Hart taking over day-to-day operations and the proximity to the meeting with the Infractions committee I find a little more than coincidental.

 

[TerryP]

To add a few more thoughts on this...

I would be more worried if:

The student athletes involved were buying things that weren't related to school work. IE: as mentioned in the response, I-pods, clothing, etc.

The student-athletes were selling the books for cash.

The weird thing is, at least to me, is how the encompasses prior years. As example, the receipts showing that players received things considered "extra benefits" because there were test booklets, etc., packaged together with text books.

(I had a problem/gripe with "recommended reading/purchases" that were included in the syllabi when I was a student. Hell, a lot of the books recommended, some even stated as required, I didn't purchase until something actually came up in class that forced me to buy them. And, in some of those classes I didn't buy them at all...just checked them out at Gorgas.)

 

[Guest]

"No, I'm saying we'll see the same type article and report in the future with Andre as well.

There is no getting around the fact all of these athletes knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong.

There is no getting around the fact that there were no controls in place to keep it from happening.

I'm not saying Dever's office dropped the ball. I'm saying it wasn't picked up. The same goes for the system in place at the Supe Store."

I think we could see the NCAA try to investigate Smith simply because if they try to lower the boom on UA for what they have now, it's going to be damned hard to sell it publically. Even against UA.

My guess is that if the NCAA is WANTING to nail Bama, they'll follow the same playbook they did before, they will look to add in multiple ticky-tack events, to try to create a case for their being 'widespread' problems in the football program and/or athletic department.

But if they wait and bring up Smith later, they can make it look like they started investigating Bama because of the 'textbook scandal', and then they found Smith and whatever other minor stuff they can come up with. Then you could have their 'case' for why Bama needs to get hammered.

Hate to play doom/gloom, but we have to remember just how corrupt of an organization the NCAA is.

Maybe I'm wrong, but based on memory and assumption (without time right now to research) did we not report this matter immediately to the SEC and NCAA? If that is indeed the case then we self-reported, suspended Andre' immediately and by his choice he decided not to return (i.e. never played another down of football for Alabama after supposed action/accusation).

So, in my little mind what else is there to this? Yeah, I know we're talking NCAA but unless there is more to this than we know this one seems easy.

 

[Guest]

My biggest concerns are the wording, as I mentioned earlier, and the fact they wanted us in person. It makes it seem like it was too serious to handle through the mail. Did they really want us to fly cross-country just to see our shining faces? We've already been to Indy once if not twice on this issue. Why out to San Diego? Too many questions in all of this.

I guess I get to answer my own question here.

On al.com Scarbinsky responds to my very question:

"But when your repeat-violator window is open, you can't use the summary disposition process. You're required to go before the committee."

 

[Nate]

The names an address's of every member of the Infractions Committee for the NCAA. Plus the Director and VP.... interesting.



I hope nothing major comes of this.. but if it does the NCAA will be hammered by some of the media outlets, that tried very hard to get some recognition of the Reggie Bush thing.

Also isn't the Federal Government already investigating the NCAA for some corruption type stuff?

 

[Nate]

The fact that this whole deal is going to require a compliance official present whenever a student athlete gets a book for a class shows how absolutely ridiculous some of the NCAA rules are.

 

[Guest]

I can give first hand knowledge that text book scandals with athletes has been ongoing (not exactly the same) since at least the late 90's :wink:

 

[alagator]

If we so much as receive a letter of admonishment, then Mal Moore better be summarily and PUBLICALLY fired by Dr. Witt.

None of this 'it being the right time to retire' and 'we will hate to see Mal go' BS. FIRED for gross incompetence in hiring and oversight responsibilities.

Is Mal Moore more important than our institution?

And Dave Hart's record and involvement in the early events of the FSU cheating scandal does not give me great confidence that Moore's 'hand picked' successor is any better.

This time, I think BamaDelta's fears and worries might be valid.

I realize where a lot of this comes from considering past comments on Moore and Hart.

I do feel that you are over-reacting in this situation, specifically with your comment, "FIRED for gross incompetence in hiring and oversight responsibilities."

That would be Moore fired for the hiring that occurred at the Supe Store where this breakdown in oversight occurred.

My comments that Moore should be fired are that he should be done so only if it is found that our lax distribution process results in any sanctions from a letter of admonishment up.

Moore hired Chris King, at the time a very young and relatively inexperienced compliance 'expert' from Central Florida. At the time King was hired, many expressed some concerns over his youth and lack of longitudinal experience with the NCAA. We have seen a number of times now where King was NOT up to the task.

Look, and this is mostly opinion, but Moore is an anchor around our neck where the NCAA is concerned. It is indisputable that Moore was in the hotel suite where his long-time friend Logan Young had a highly suspicious meeting with the family of a recruit (a recruit from roughly two states and a few hundred miles from Memphis) and that Moore saw and heard the conversations. He, to his credit, stopped the meeting; but he failed to report the illegal (by NCAA standards) contact to our compliance people. Either because he did not know the reporting requirement (troubling because Moore had over 30 years experience dealing with NCAA rules) or to save his personal friend much trouble with UA. Then, in the midst of a very difficult NCAA investigation with Logan Young at the very core of the problem, we (stupidly) PROMOTE Youngs' buddy Moore to the AD job.

To think the NCAA did not see that as a spit in their eye would require a huge suspension of all logic.

Rightly or wrongly, the NCAA will never give us the benefit of the doubt as long as Moore is our AD. And in my opinion they should not. When compliance is paramount to the survival of your organization, as ours was at the time King was hired, Moore dropped the ball.

Perhaps if Moore spent less time telling yarns about Coach Bryant and more attending to the day-to-day affairs of the athletic department that actually mattered we would not be in this situation. AGAIN.

But, to show this is all not based on just ONE poor hire. Then, when it is clear to even Dr. Witt that Moore is not competent to run the daily affairs of a roughly $80MM enterprise and directs that someone be hired to be the COO to Moore's CEO - Moore reaches out to another 'Bama Man' with a checkered past. A man who did all he could to cloud and hide the genesis of the FSU grade/cheating scandal and was run out of Tallahassee. Like the two guys in the Guiness commercials said 'BRILLIANT!'

For decades, I have stated that I had rather lose with integrity and honesty than win with deceit and skirting the rules. Since 1992 we have actually been combining the WORST of those options - losing (with far too great a frequency) while actually breaking the rules. BRILLIANT! And instead of looking introspectively for why we continue to hire and promote people with no history or record of successful managerial experience (kind of like the President we elected last year) we look to blame someone else when that inexperience manifests itself in a chain of poor decisions and policies and procedures (again, kind of like our new Messiah).

Sorry for the rant. But I have seen this train wreck coming and have shouted till I was blue in the face. But everyone told me to just wait that Moore was going to retire soon ('soon' began in 2002 by the way). The man needs to be gone NOW. And in a way that sends the signal to everyone - UA fan, UA rival, NCAA alike, that he is so because we really do take compliance seriously. Our actions kind of outshout Witts very eloquent words.

Okay, getting ready for my play date on a certain course we discussed last week. Will give you an update Monday on how it overwhelmed my game (we have decided to play once from the tournament tees - that will not be 'purdy and triple digits would not surprise me).

 

[Guest]

Who is this Mike Ward that is in charge of compliance now? As gator states Chris King was in charge last year and it looks like he was possibly promoted. :shock:

http://www.rolltide.com/staffdir/alab-staffdir.html

 

[alagator]

Terry...

One thing you could check for us while you do a little source mining.

What did Board of Trustees know about all this and when did they know it?

Telling would be the depth of knowledge they had about the complete facts before they voted on the Bryant-Denny expansion.

Good question. I thought of that as well. Are you implying that the BOT must feel positive about the upcoming NCAA results, gator?

Actually, BD, I am wondering if Moore did not fully disclose the depth of the matter with the Board (he does have a history of not fully disclosing pertinent details to those in the proper channels - putting the institution at risk to protect an individual) and the Board might have voted to expand the stadium at a time when it did not have the full and complete facts about our program before it.

Your 'Negative Nelly' fears are wearing off onto me. :cry:

 

[Guest]

Terry...

One thing you could check for us while you do a little source mining.

What did Board of Trustees know about all this and when did they know it?

Telling would be the depth of knowledge they had about the complete facts before they voted on the Bryant-Denny expansion.

Good question. I thought of that as well. Are you implying that the BOT must feel positive about the upcoming NCAA results, gator?

Actually, BD, I am wondering if Moore did not fully disclose the depth of the matter with the Board (he does have a history of not fully disclosing pertinent details to those in the proper channels - putting the institution at risk to protect an individual) and the Board might have voted to expand the stadium at a time when it did not have the full and complete facts about our program before it.

Your 'Negative Nelly' fears are wearing off onto me. :cry:

Don't go there, gator. :shock:

This whole thing makes me sick, but at the same time I can't worry about the repercussions. They aren't going to listen to me anyway. :wink: I have a feeling they already have their minds made up anyway. Part of me wants to believe we'll be commended for our handling of this issue, but when "failure to control" is implied and no one was fired in the failure I can't be that naive.

Just hope for the best. I believe that would be limited punishment and sliding Mal out of the door. Surely even Dr. Witt can see his time is done. I do wonder, as you mentioned earlier, how his presence must insult the NCAA. Mal is a super nice guy, so I don't think he goes in there all smug and egotistical. Considering the nature of our past transgressions and his presence during that time...it just must blow the NCAA's mind that he is still in charge and maybe "back at it" in their minds.