🏀 Bama and 2018-19 Bracketology

[BamaFan334]

Most of the conversations about the Bama team on this thread has a lot more to do with the state of the program as it stands after 4 years and little to do if we could possibly sneak into the 4 seed this tourney.

We are not breaking through with our talent and it's frustration and will continue to be frustrating when we play .500 basketball in the league. But for the record, we have some good coaches in the SEC who are recruiting at a much higher level. My Top for 4 teams this season, regardless of whether we happen to beat them or not:

Tennessee
LSU
Kentucky
Auburn

They are built and coached for results and look like the more sustainable teams in our league over the long haul. Wade down at LSU in a newcomer, but you could see the stockpiling of talent the last 2 recruiting cycles and the guy has them playing unafraid.

Barnes at Tennessee doesn't have a 5* or McDonald All-American on his team. He also doesn't have a team that's going to implode every year with the NBA draft. Much different strategy than what he took at Texas. He's doing this with an extremely well-coached system and tough-minded players.

Auburn is sustainable if Pearl doesn't get blown out of the water by external circumstances. Which for him is 90% of the game. But he can coach and recognizes how to put the pieces together no matter who's on the court and he plays in a cracker box that he has energized into a true home advantage. What's that worth?

Kentucky is Kentucky.

All of these teams are establishing an identity and style that allows them to compete on a higher and more consistent level than our basketball team. I don't think we're trending anywhere near where they look like they are heading.

Has coach Johnson built a top 25 basketball team after 4 years? No

Like you said, Kentucky is Kentucky, no discussion necessary. Auburn lives and dies by the three. They could be on fire and win the Natty, or they could be the Virginia of the tournament and go cold and lose to Nebraska A&T State. Tennessee is a team I look at a lot like Clemson's football team. They have been very fortunate to benefit from a core that has decided to stay together multiple years and make a run. Much like Clemson's defense doing what they did and watching everything fall into place. These are very rare instances in college sports anymore, so we will have to see how Clemson and Tennessee produce after their stars leave for graduation. LSU, they have been recruiting decent the last few years and have put a good team together. This happens all across the country each year to a few teams where they come out of nowhere to have a solid year, so they are just the team this year and playing good ball. I see zero constancy out of that program. So when you finally break it down there are reasons for everything and each of those teams you named have a reason for their spurt this year, not simply because they have been consistent programs whereas we are not.

 

[TerryP]

Most of the conversations about the Bama team on this thread has a lot more to do with the state of the program as it stands after 4 years and little to do if we could possibly sneak into the 4 seed this tourney.

We are not breaking through with our talent and it's frustration and will continue to be frustrating when we play .500 basketball in the league. But for the record, we have some good coaches in the SEC who are recruiting at a much higher level. My Top for 4 teams this season, regardless of whether we happen to beat them or not:

Tennessee
LSU
Kentucky
Auburn

And here's an example of where some of these "state of the program" opinions fall short.

Pearl is in his fifth season at Auburn and CAJ is in his fourth.
Pearl has an SEC record of 33-47 at Auburn in conference play.
Johnson has an SEC record of 32-32 at Alabama in conference play.

One regular season of games and Pearl leads Avery by one game in the win column but Auburn's state of the program is better than Bama's?

While LSU is having a very good season, one year doesn't define the state of their program. Their track record is less than Bama's when you want to discuss the health of the program over the last few years or over the last decade (including Grant and Gottfried.)

FWIW, the last time I checked Auburn didn't have a single win against a Quadrant 1 opponent this season. That doesn't suggest a healthy program to me.

 

[TUSKtimes]

And here's an example of where some of these "state of the program" opinions fall short.

Pearl is in his fifth season at Auburn and CAJ is in his fourth.
Pearl has an SEC record of 33-47 at Auburn in conference play.
Johnson has an SEC record of 32-32 at Alabama in conference play.

One regular season of games and Pearl leads Avery by one game in the win column but Auburn's state of the program is better than Bama's?

While LSU is having a very good season, one year doesn't define the state of their program. Their track record is less than Bama's when you want to discuss the health of the program over the last few years or over the last decade (including Grant and Gottfried.)

FWIW, the last time I checked Auburn didn't have a single win against a Quadrant 1 opponent this season. That doesn't suggest a healthy program to me.

And Barnes is in his fourth. So what? Either you're making progress or not. When Bama wins an SEC title, as Tennessee and Auburn, the eyes will see it. When you have your strengths well defined as a program and your go-to guys are unafraid and you can do more with less, your eyes will see it. But when the argument becomes about stats and you feel the necessity to pull your slide rule out in Johnson's 4th year to define success for our basketball program, rest assured, it's because otherwise, your eyes can't see it.

 

[TUSKtimes]

Auburn lives and dies by the three. They could be on fire and win the Natty, or they could be the Virginia of the tournament and go cold and lose to Nebraska A&T State.

That denotes they know who they are and what they are trying to execute. What I've seen, Pearl also had a scrappy bunch who was making basketball moves at Tennessee. Pearl will play small ball if it's his best chance, based on personnel. And very importantly, the program is alive from the fans perspective.

Tennessee is a team I look at a lot like Clemson's football team. They have been very fortunate to benefit from a core that has decided to stay together multiple years and make a run. Much like Clemson's defense doing what they did and watching everything fall into place. These are very rare instances in college sports anymore, so we will have to see how Clemson and Tennessee produce after their stars leave for graduation. LSU, they have been recruiting decent the last few years and have put a good team together.

I don't see the similarities at all. You're talking about elite players at Clemson who stayed even though early rounds of the draft were waiting for them. That might work if you compared them to Kentucky. At Tennessee, as I said, no McDonald All-Americans on the team. This is a blue-collar bunch if there ever were any. Barnes had elite players throughout his tenure at Texas. He couldn't get past Kansas and simply didn't do enough in the NCAA tourney, as far as Texas is concerned. He's already won an SEC title and has now spent about a month at #1 without a 5*. Bama has had one McDonald and he left early. Hardly a massive exodus that has caused Avery Johnson to have to rebuild in the middle of his rebuild.

You want to make the argument solely about talent and not coaching and I don't believe it for a minute. Everything is about coaching in sports, absolutely everything. For Alabama fans to miss that simple concept, shows how hard some are trying to justify what they're seeing at this point. The argument is about the talent that's not gelling in defining moments of the games. Why can't we consistently gell in fundamental moments of the game after 4 seasons? It's just that simple. Did I mention, coaching is everything?

 

[BamaFan334]

That denotes they know who they are and what they are trying to execute. What I've seen, Pearl also had a scrappy bunch who was making basketball moves at Tennessee. Pearl will play small ball if it's his best chance, based on personnel. And very importantly, the program is alive from the fans perspective.





I don't see the similarities at all. You're talking about elite players at Clemson who stayed even though early rounds of the draft were waiting for them. That might work if you compared them to Kentucky. At Tennessee, as I said, no McDonald All-Americans on the team. This is a blue-collar bunch if there ever were any. Barnes had elite players throughout his tenure at Texas. He couldn't get past Kansas and simply didn't do enough in the NCAA tourney, as far as Texas is concerned. He's already won an SEC title and has now spent about a month at #1 without a 5*. Bama has had one McDonald and he left early. Hardly a massive exodus that has caused Avery Johnson to have to rebuild in the middle of his rebuild.

You want to make the argument solely about talent and not coaching and I don't believe it for a minute. Everything is about coaching in sports, absolutely everything. For Alabama fans to miss that simple concept, shows how hard some are trying to justify what they're seeing at this point. The argument is about the talent that's not gelling in defining moments of the games. Why can't we consistently gell in fundamental moments of the game after 4 seasons? It's just that simple. Did I mention, coaching is everything?

It doesn't matter if Auburn knows who they are, they are a chunk em up, living by a low percentage team. That doesn't mean they are better than us by any means.

There is a direct correlation between Clemson and Tennessee, called veteran leadership. It doesn't always take a five star to be a leader, and we see all of the time where three and four stars outplay five stars, so ranking doesn't always mean everything. My entire point was that Dabo and Barnes have both had their guys for three, four, and five years so they could develop them and build cohesion. not as much plug and play like our football team has had to endure, so it makes their job easier and results more in line with success. With time together, you know when to expect that no look pass, you know when to expect the outlet pass, you know when to expect that give and go. It's a lot easier coaching veterans than first or second year guys. Look at Petty for instance, leaps and bounds a better all around player than the three chunking guy he was last year. You know what, he's gonna be even better if he returns for next year. That one All-American we have, gone. He took a year of experience from a lesser player that could have developed more in that year more than Sexton did while he played 99% of the time. I'm glad Sexton came though.

Of course coaching stands behind everything, but you can see statistically we are a better team. We may not be getting the results to satisfy every fan, but we are proving statistically that we are better each year under Johnson. Facts are facts, and there is no reason to even continue this discussion if you cannot look at the numbers and the product we are offering and not think we are better than 5,6,7,8 years ago.

Why can't we gel? Well, we have had three different guys leading the point the last three years. The most recent one reclassified, meaning he is technically a year younger and less experienced than every other player in the country. We have had two new transfers come in and have to learn our team. We did have a veteran player go down last year for the season. We are playing more as a team, players spreading the ball around, more guys getting more time. Yeah, we turn the ball over and sometimes look lost, but that's every team. Outside of Duke, Virginia, and maybe Gonzaga, every other team in the country has looked lost at times. And don't forget we gave Tennessee the ball game, so we are just as able as Auburn. Most of the teams in the Top 25 have 5, 6, 7 losses, and we aren't far behind. if we don't get beat on two prayers thrown up, we are sitting at 7 losses, with a couple of those even being last minute losses we gave up. There's a reason we are still in NCAA Tournament contention, and it's not because we suck.

 

[TUSKtimes]

It doesn't matter if Auburn knows who they are, they are a chunk em up, living by a low percentage team. That doesn't mean they are better than us by any means.

No, why would any head to head matchup determine the superior basketball program in itself? Frankly, that's more my argument than yours. But if you're trying to say that Auburn's basketball program at this point is no more successful than Alabama's your nuts.

There is a direct correlation between Clemson and Tennessee, called veteran leadership. It doesn't always take a five star to be a leader, and we see all of the time where three and four stars outplay five stars, so ranking doesn't always mean everything. My entire point was that Dabo and Barnes have both had their guys for three, four, and five years so they could develop them and build cohesion. not as much plug and play like our football team has had to endure, so it makes their job easier and results more in line with success. With time together, you know when to expect that no look pass, you know when to expect the outlet pass, you know when to expect that give and go. It's a lot easier coaching veterans than first or second year guys. Look at Petty for instance, leaps and bounds a better all around player than the three chunking guy he was last year. You know what, he's gonna be even better if he returns for next year. That one All-American we have, gone. He took a year of experience from a lesser player that could have developed more in that year more than Sexton did while he played 99% of the time. I'm glad Sexton came though.

What about Bama's seniors and experience? We have Riley, Hall, Ingram, Johnson, as 4th-year players. Even Gibbons and Mack are 4th-year players as Junior transfers. Spend your time explaining away who these guys are with basketball experience and stop all this subterfuge you have going on.

Of course coaching stands behind everything, but you can see statistically we are a better team. We may not be getting the results to satisfy every fan, but we are proving statistically that we are better each year under Johnson. Facts are facts, and there is no reason to even continue this discussion if you cannot look at the numbers and the product we are offering and not think we are better than 5,6,7,8 years ago.

You can pretty much forget people measuring Avery Johnson by Avery Johnson, never. And we need not measure this team by Johnny Dee's "Rocket 8" ballclub either. He gets compared to the better teams and better coaches in the league who are his contemporaries.

Why can't we gel? Well, we have had three different guys leading the point the last three years. The most recent one reclassified, meaning he is technically a year younger and less experienced than every other player in the country. We have had two new transfers come in and have to learn our team. We did have a veteran player go down last year for the season. We are playing more as a team, players spreading the ball around, more guys getting more time. Yeah, we turn the ball over and sometimes look lost, but that's every team. Outside of Duke, Virginia, and maybe Gonzaga, every other team in the country has looked lost at times. And don't forget we gave Tennessee the ball game, so we are just as able as Auburn. Most of the teams in the Top 25 have 5, 6, 7 losses, and we aren't far behind. if we don't get beat on two prayers thrown up, we are sitting at 7 losses, with a couple of those even being last minute losses we gave up. There's a reason we are still in NCAA Tournament contention, and it's not because we suck.

Let's talk about this. Why can't we gel? Why can't we repeat fundamental task, game to game? Especially under pressure coming down the stretch? We often clutter the threads with Bama's poor free throw shooting and it should be a concern. But free throws are not our biggest bugaboo. Some of our best basketball teams in the past weren't necessarily great free throw shooting teams. CM Newton and Wimp Sanderson teams for example.

What we are, in reality, is a terrible ball handling team. We make terrible decisions with the ball especially with 10 minutes or less in the game as pressure ramps up. We are still not under control when our wings and guards are driving at the rim. Our players at most all positions will not take care of the ball. They throw the ball out of bounds, to defensive players or just dribble it off their leg. Crunch time for an Avery Johnson coached team is as hairy as a 70s rock fan at a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert.

I would personally make the argument we are a better team without Sexton. He could never figure out when to shoot and when to facilitate the ball. A huge handicap for a point guard that has translated that inability to the NBA. I've been very surprised with this part of our game not getting better over the years when we have one of the great facilitators in basketball as our HC. You would reasonably think that a former NBA point guard could help the team with ball control and have it reflect better than all these turnovers we are seeing when the trapping and double-teaming begins.

You can't gel as a team without doing the fundamentals well. This is the same as not taking care of the football or not wrapping up when you hit a guy. And when we are being exposed with all these same fundamental shortcomings after year 4 that is on our point guard, coach Johnson.

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

Some of y'all are still failing to realize that between the last few years of Gott-fired's tenure and up thru Grant's, there's over a decade of ineptitude.

It took 10+years to get to arguably one of the lowest points in program history. Over a decade of mediocrity from a product AND culture standpoint.

But somehow a new coach is supposed to rebuild in less than 4 years what took 10 years to destroy? This ain't football with an 85 man roster, and all a coach has to do to start performing miracles is get a core 30 of those 85 players bought in for a quick turnaround (Nod to @TerryP 's reference to looking at basketball thru a football lense).

Remember, Avery is not just trying to improve a product on the floor (which he HAS done, as also noted by @TerryP). He's trying to rebuild a culture of an entire program that was emaciated by the last 2 coaches. That's what his first 2-4 years was/is for.

Hes checking all the boxes.

Now, if there's a plateau or godforbid a collapse after years 5-6? Then we might have a problem..

For now, we're right on track. Settle down and try to see the larger forest behind the couple of trees you're focusing on..

 

[TUSKtimes]

Some of y'all are still failing to realize that between the last few years of Gott-fired's tenure and up thru Grant's, there's over a decade of ineptitude.

It took 10+years to get to arguably one of the lowest points in program history. Over a decade of mediocrity from a product AND culture standpoint.

But somehow a new coach is supposed to rebuild in less than 4 years what took 10 years to destroy? This ain't football with an 85 man roster, and all a coach has to do to start performing miracles is get a core 30 of those 85 players bought in for a quick turnaround (Nod to @TerryP 's reference to looking at basketball thru a football lense).

Remember, Avery is not just trying to improve a product on the floor (which he HAS done, as also noted by @TerryP). He's trying to rebuild a culture of an entire program that was emaciated by the last 2 coaches. That's what his first 2-4 years was/is for.

Hes checking all the boxes.

Now, if there's a plateau or godforbid a collapse after years 5-6? Then we might have a problem..

For now, we're right on track. Settle down and try to see the larger forest behind the couple of trees you're focusing on..

Those 4 years you speak of didn't keep Mike Shula from getting fired. Mike Dubose turned loose for additional 2 or 3 seasons of football seemed superfluous. What did we learn from Anthony Grant's 6th year that we didn't know in his 4th? His basketball program never crashed and burned, in spite of an offense that had all the characteristics of a tractor pull. But it wasn't like that should have surprised anyone. We were a tractor pull on offense every year he was coaching, regardless of personnel. Patterns matter.

Are we really talking about wins or losses or should we be discussing what we should be seeing out of our team by now? Frankly, I thought the kids played hard for Grant. They played defense like their hair was on fire. It was just painfully obvious this was as good as it was going to get.

 

[BamaFan334]

No, why would any head to head matchup determine the superior basketball program in itself? Frankly, that's more my argument than yours. But if you're trying to say that Auburn's basketball program at this point is no more successful than Alabama's your nuts.


What about Bama's seniors and experience? We have Riley, Hall, Ingram, Johnson, as 4th-year players. Even Gibbons and Mack are 4th-year players as Junior transfers. Spend your time explaining away who these guys are with basketball experience and stop all this subterfuge you have going on.





You can pretty much forget people measuring Avery Johnson by Avery Johnson, never. And we need not measure this team by Johnny Dee's "Rocket 8" ballclub either. He gets compared to the better teams and better coaches in the league who are his contemporaries.





Let's talk about this. Why can't we gel? Why can't we repeat fundamental task, game to game? Especially under pressure coming down the stretch? We often clutter the threads with Bama's poor free throw shooting and it should be a concern. But free throws are not our biggest bugaboo. Some of our best basketball teams in the past weren't necessarily great free throw shooting teams. CM Newton and Wimp Sanderson teams for example.

What we are, in reality, is a terrible ball handling team. We make terrible decisions with the ball especially with 10 minutes or less in the game as pressure ramps up. We are still not under control when our wings and guards are driving at the rim. Our players at most all positions will not take care of the ball. They throw the ball out of bounds, to defensive players or just dribble it off their leg. Crunch time for an Avery Johnson coached team is as hairy as a 70s rock fan at a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert.

I would personally make the argument we are a better team without Sexton. He could never figure out when to shoot and when to facilitate the ball. A huge handicap for a point guard that has translated that inability to the NBA. I've been very surprised with this part of our game not getting better over the years when we have one of the great facilitators in basketball as our HC. You would reasonably think that a former NBA point guard could help the team with ball control and have it reflect better than all these turnovers we are seeing when the trapping and double-teaming begins.

You can't gel as a team without doing the fundamentals well. This is the same as not taking care of the football or not wrapping up when you hit a guy. And when we are being exposed with all these same fundamental shortcomings after year 4 that is on our point guard, coach Johnson.

I like relating a lot of stuff to our football team, because I know we are always the better team. Now, we lost to Ole Miss, two years in a row. Does that mean they were a better team than us, or just better that day or that we helped them beat us? Exactly what I though, so that's why we don't always count head to heads.

We do have some seniors, for sure, but Mack is a guy just getting back into game shape after a year and a half off, Norris is coming off an injury, and Giddens is as well. I think we can also chalk up the last two to not necessarily being the kind of guys that are gonna take you to a Natty. Great team players and can give you some valuable minutes, but nothing consistent that drives a true contender. Love those two, but they are not the kind of guys to get us to the level that you obviously think we should be at. Hall has made tremendous strides. Still lacks a true killer instinct, but very efficient. Ingram is a guy I just can't peg. he has a ton of ability, but cannot put it together to keep us from going down the toilet like against Mississippi State. Kira and Petty are solid guys, along with Mack, they are a nice three piece combo that we can hopefully build off of one more season.

Free throw shooting, I throw my hands up at. I cannot figure that one out.

Have you ever thought that maybe Johnson is teaching the finer points of the game, but the guys just aren't applying them? You do understand he is finally getting some recruits in and now has a chance to mold a team, right? I haven't been an Alabama fan as long as very many of y'all, but in my short tenure I see a team that competes and can win on any given night. Something that hasn't always been said. I think we are working towards a solid program. Clearly you think differently.

 

[TUSKtimes]

I like relating a lot of stuff to our football team, because I know we are always the better team. Now, we lost to Ole Miss, two years in a row. Does that mean they were a better team than us, or just better that day or that we helped them beat us? Exactly what I though, so that's why we don't always count head to heads.

We are on the same page here.

but they are not the kind of guys to get us to the level that you obviously think we should be at.

Perhaps if you commented more on my specific argument in your reply you wouldn't be telling me what I haven't said. The level I think we should be at isn't just about wins and losses as I've said now on more than one post. It's sloppy plays, ball control, turnovers that plague this team in crunch time. It's abundantly clear in year 4 as year one. It's a lazy attitude against opponents we are better than.

Have you ever thought that maybe Johnson is teaching the finer points of the game, but the guys just aren't applying them? You do understand he is finally getting some recruits in and now has a chance to mold a team, right? I haven't been an Alabama fan as long as very many of y'all, but in my short tenure I see a team that competes and can win on any given night. Something that hasn't always been said. I think we are working towards a solid program. Clearly you think differently.

Could you imagine that coach Bryant or coach Saban are teaching the finer points of football fundamentals but the team doesn't want to apply them in year 4 of their tenure? No, neither could I. We came out of 10 years in the wilderness with Dubose, Price, Francione, and Shula and in year 2 of coach Saban's reign we were undefeated in the regular season. We didn't have the depth but we had the fundamentals and want to. A few come to Jesus moments can change fundamentals and this attention to detail you speak of.

In all fairness, basketball doesn't mean to me what football has always meant. The same is obviously true for most of us here. That's why the double standard exists as far as tolerance is concerned as a fanbase. But if we are just talking failings as a basketball team, well, there you are. No point in sugar coating it.

 

[footballer]

Good players and mediocre players come and go each year. What is or should be the common denominator? The head coach and his assistants and the teachings of said coaches. A great head coach HAS to have a system in place every day of every year, to teach every one of his players the fundamentals of each position and teach each player to be smart enough to play winning basketball every time they step on the court. Yes, there is a reason for mass turnovers, being out of position on defense, not blocking out for rebounds and other poor play in most every game. But sadly, what I hear mostly are excuses. CMG and CAG were average at best. I have heard other coaches say that CMG offenses were as easy to plan for as high school teams. And as someone else stated, CAG offenses were like a tractor pull, and I agree. Neither one of these coaches has what it takes to mold a well rounded team of smart, fundamental college team of players into a winning program, game after game, year after year. Each coach tries to attract the type of athletes he wants for his team. It is up to him and his assistants to take the players he recruited and turn them into the team he wants, one way or another.

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

Part of building a CULTURE, one which Avery's efforts of doing so being incredible, is stuff like this...

 

[TerryP]

And Barnes is in his fourth. So what? Either you're making progress or not. When Bama wins an SEC title, as Tennessee and Auburn, the eyes will see it. When you have your strengths well defined as a program and your go-to guys are unafraid and you can do more with less, your eyes will see it. But when the argument becomes about stats and you feel the necessity to pull your slide rule out in Johnson's 4th year to define success for our basketball program, rest assured, it's because otherwise, your eyes can't see it.

My eyes can clearly see the improvement. If we're basing this on the "eye test," we using a subjective measurement. Some can't see the improvement. So, let's set the subjective observations aside and use something completely objective: the statistics at which it seems you're scoffing.

Objectively, the improvement is documented. Subjectively, it will always be matter of opinion: it's the foundation of a subjective view--personal perspective and feelings. One can't look at last season—where the dominating complaint was scoring—and see a team which has improved but then question whether the team is making progress or not.

 

[TerryP]

And for the love of all things holy, at what point will people stop trying to draw comparisons between football and basketball. .

 

[TUSKtimes]

My eyes can clearly see the improvement. If we're basing this on the "eye test," we using a subjective measurement. Some can't see the improvement. So, let's set the subjective observations aside and use something completely objective: the statistics at which it seems you're scoffing.

Objectively, the improvement is documented. Subjectively, it will always be matter of opinion: it's the foundation of a subjective view--personal perspective and feelings. One can't look at last season—where the dominating complaint was scoring—and see a team which has improved but then question whether the team is making progress or not.

What do your statistics say about turnovers, objectively speaking?

And for the love of all things holy, at what point will people stop trying to draw comparisons between football and basketball. .

Mainly, because the discussion is really about neither. It's about why some programs are successful at what they do and others not so much. What do you think when you see football guys like Butch Jones, Mike Locksley, Sarkisian, Kiffin and a host of other ex-head coaches coming to Alabama to work specifically with coach Saban? They have great football minds or Saban wouldn't hire them. Why would Butch Jones seemingly be willing to publically humiliate himself as an ex Tennessee coach, who use to call us the "red" team, go to a hated rival to work as an apprentice to the head coach who helped get you fired with all those beatdowns? What is motivating these guys?

Because each one was humble enough in their own way to want to get better. At some personal level, they looked at Bama's program and their own failings and were honest enough with themselves to realize they were missing fundamental things to success. Highly unusual.

Attention to detail, from the gameplan to fundamentals to leadership to emotionally knowing the strings to pull to consistently get the best from your team can come down to a lot of little things that must be done for success. If it was easy to see with the naked eye, in a moment's notice, why would these ex-head coaches feel compelled to go and work with coach Saban for a couple of years, at least? So I would say that the sport of basketball in itself has little to do with the conversation we are having.

 

[TerryP]

So when you finally break it down there are reasons for everything and each of those teams you named have a reason for their spurt this year, not simply because they have been consistent programs whereas we are not.

Washington State, of all teams, coming out of the PAC which a lot are projecting to be a one bid conference this season.

 

[TerryP]

So I would say that the sport of basketball in itself has little to do with the conversation we are having.

Football, what Jones and other coaches have done with Saban, have nothing to do with basketball. But, I'll set that aside to address this moving basket.

You were bringing up the state of the program and used three other teams as examples of teams that were doing better than Alabama. Sarcastic? I'm not sure. But trying to diminish win totals when comparing two programs—Alabama and Auburn—and finding that Avery has as many as Pearly in one years less time on the job speaks volumes for exactly that, the health of the program.

What do your statistics say about turnovers, objectively speaking?

It'll kill a team, occasionally. And, it happens.

If you look at the worst games this season with turnovers you'll find more wins than losses. Auburn and Mississippi State were bad games. Both were on the road. A team having issues with ball control on the road? That's college basketball. 17 at home versus Kentucky in a win, 18 against Mississippi state on the road in a loss. Yet, it's the turnovers? It's a facet of the game.

What's interesting to me is we're seeing people point to turnovers as some sort of indictment on coaching. Yet, a team like Gonzaga only averages roughly three fewer per game.

"Auburn's state of the program is better than Bama's." " Bama's issues have to do with so many turnovers." Yet, there's a .2 difference between the two teams in turnover average. (It's eerily familiar with the mantra from last year where people were pointing to free throws as the reasons the team was losing despite the wins in games when they were shooting at their worst, and losses when they were shooting at their best.) LSU, another team lauded here as their program being in a better state, is doing worse in that category as well.

There's singularity people look at football through and that same perspective is applied to basketball. It doesn't belong.

Here's one thing I find really telling. There's one area you can look at this years team and say, objectively, that they are worse this season than last--or the last few years. Yet, I've not seen it mentioned anywhere while discussing the basketball team. Why? Personal feelings and opinions leading to subjective analysis when facts prove differently.

 

[TUSKtimes]

Football, what Jones and other coaches have done with Saban, have nothing to do with basketball.

Only if attention to detail matters for success. I'll just go ahead and assume when we get together to discuss the specifics of what's going wrong it's just not interesting enough to you.

You were bringing up the state of the program and used three other teams as examples of teams that were doing better than Alabama. Sarcastic? I'm not sure. But trying to diminish win totals when comparing two programs—Alabama and Auburn—and finding that Avery has as many as Pearly in one years less time on the job speaks volumes for exactly that, the health of the program.

Sarcastic? Tennessee is currently ranked #1 in the nation and both they and Auburn are co-champs of the SEC as we speak. LSU just beat #5 Kentucky at #5 Kentucky and are currently ranked #17 in the nation with only one SEC loss to their credit. Do you mean those 3 teams?

It'll kill a team, occasionally. And, it happens.

No kidding. And it's happening an awful lot in Tuscaloosa. Especially at the most inopportune time. Late in ballgames when the outcome is in doubt. Sell this stuff to coach Saban. You know those turnovers vs Clemson, a lot of teams do it coach, no big deal.
Seriously, I dare you!

What's interesting to me is we're seeing people point to turnovers as some sort of indictment on coaching. Yet, a team like Gonzaga only averages roughly three fewer per game.

So personally speaking, just how many good basketball coaches do you know that don't believe turnovers will get you beat?

"Auburn's state of the program is better than Bama's." " Bama's issues have to do with so many turnovers." Yet, there's a .2 difference between the two teams in turnover average. It's eerily familiar with the mantra from last year where people were pointing to free throws as the reasons the team was losing despite the wins in games when they were shooting at their worst, and losses when they were shooting at their best.

Hey Terry, why don't we ask the fans about the state of the barners and Bama's basketball program? Do we have any videotape on the student sections of each team lately?

Here's one thing I find really telling. There's one area you can look at this years team and say, objectively, that they are worse this season than last--or the last few years. Yet, I've not seen it mentioned anywhere while discussing the basketball team. Why? Personal feelings and opinions leading to subjective analysis when facts prove differently.

Here's a fact and you'll like it because I'm going to wrap it up nice and tight in a great big juicy statistic. Alabama basketball record in the SEC the last 4 years under Avery Johnson is 33-34. That record makes us a very average SEC team by anyone's standard. Johnson has only had one season that he has finished with a winning SEC record at 10-8. Not only are we a .500 SEC team for the last 4 years it looks like plenty more where that came from. Those are the statistical facts that matter most. No matter how many stats we want to pass around this forum on how we got here, we will always be exactly what our record says we are.

Wins and losses, imagine that?

 

[mando]

Its the same thing every year, are we in or out and we oscillate between the in/out bubble. This did not start with CAJ for sure. He actually moved us at least to the bubble. He has improved the program for sure.

This gets down to the unspoken thing people are talking around but not saying, what is definition of success for Bama basketball. Here is my cut:

You hear things like 9 out of the last 10 years Bama has been an NCAA tournament team, consistently in the top 25, win 75% (win 3 lose 1) of SEC games, top 3 of SEC.

Is that realistic? Not sure but it feels like it was up until the last 20 years or so (Wimp and Newton days) but I did not do the data check to confirm.

 

[TerryP]

You hear things like 9 out of the last 10 years Bama has been an NCAA tournament team, consistently in the top 25, win 75% (win 3 lose 1) of SEC games, top 3 of SEC.

Is that realistic? Not sure but it feels like it was up until the last 20 years or so (Wimp and Newton days) but I did not do the data check to confirm.

At this point it's unrealistic to think Bama should be in the tournament nine of ten years. Kentucky, the bell cow of this conference, has reached the tournament eight of the last ten seasons with one of those including a first round exit in the NIT. Drawing comparisons between the two programs is a lot like comparing the strategy of chess and checkers--some is the same but that list ends pretty quickly.