Kc Bleeds Crimson said:Sorry JPW is a senior If he does not improve from last year to this year, he should be harped on and complained about. If he does not perform at the qb spot... I can see him replaced regardless of experience. From what I have heard that is what is important, not how much play time. Hopefully the competition in practice will bring out the JPW we have seen at times(and not the inaccurate, no timing qb we saw at times, throwing off his back foot).
Big_Fan said:The QB situation reminds me a bit of Hollingsworth from 89 to 90.
Better coaching staff...better program...worse results. It took CGS 3 years to clean out the problems and fix what was broken - and there were fewer problems and less broken when Bebes took over...I doubt it will take any less time for Saban.
Some times good players suffer when there is a transition. It does not always make sense and the solution is not always evident, but under the right coaching staff it does get fixed.
Either JPW will be much improved in 2008, or we will see someone else under center. JPW was not the root of the problem in 2007. From a skills and physical tools standpoint, he is probably better than Barker, but he lacks the continuity and the supporting staff.
Just my .02
kudzu said:Kc Bleeds Crimson said:Sorry JPW is a senior If he does not improve from last year to this year, he should be harped on and complained about. If he does not perform at the qb spot... I can see him replaced regardless of experience. From what I have heard that is what is important, not how much play time. Hopefully the competition in practice will bring out the JPW we have seen at times(and not the inaccurate, no timing qb we saw at times, throwing off his back foot).
The qb race is going to be heated for sure.
I hope JPW's mechanics get corrected this off season.
Hopefully CMA will do some much needed work there.
TerryP said:Big_Fan said:The QB situation reminds me a bit of Hollingsworth from 89 to 90.
Better coaching staff...better program...worse results. It took CGS 3 years to clean out the problems and fix what was broken - and there were fewer problems and less broken when Bebes took over...I doubt it will take any less time for Saban.
Some times good players suffer when there is a transition. It does not always make sense and the solution is not always evident, but under the right coaching staff it does get fixed.
Either JPW will be much improved in 2008, or we will see someone else under center. JPW was not the root of the problem in 2007. From a skills and physical tools standpoint, he is probably better than Barker, but he lacks the continuity and the supporting staff.
Just my .02
Typing mistake here?
We were 11-1 in his second year, undefeated in his 3rd.
mongo4bama said:well if Mcleroy could play he would have been in already although JPW could play next year redshirting Start Jackson then Star starts his RF year because the others have not played much they will not have playing time as an advantage.
Big_Fan said:(snipped)
Either JPW will be much improved in 2008, or we will see someone else under center. JPW was not the root of the problem in 2007. From a skills and physical tools standpoint, he is probably better than Barker, but he lacks the continuity and the supporting staff.
Just my .02
crimsontradition14 said:mongo4bama said:well if Mcleroy could play he would have been in already although JPW could play next year redshirting Start Jackson then Star starts his RF year because the others have not played much they will not have playing time as an advantage.
Whoever is more talented needs to play, plain and simple.
It Takes Eleven said:Big_Fan said:(snipped)
Either JPW will be much improved in 2008, or we will see someone else under center. JPW was not the root of the problem in 2007. From a skills and physical tools standpoint, he is probably better than Barker, but he lacks the continuity and the supporting staff.
Just my .02
I agree that, when they both began as starters, JPW was a better QB than Barker because Barker had less high school QB experience, particularly in the passing game. Barker had better physical tools than JPW, and eventually developed into a much better QB than JPW currently is. Barker's gross stats don't match JPW's because we had a running game in 92-94.
I'd love to be proven wrong and have JPW make All-America, win the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award and finish in the top 5 in the Heisman voting next year, but right now they're not in the same league.
RTR,
Tim
Big_Fan said:It Takes Eleven said:Big_Fan said:(snipped)
Either JPW will be much improved in 2008, or we will see someone else under center. JPW was not the root of the problem in 2007. From a skills and physical tools standpoint, he is probably better than Barker, but he lacks the continuity and the supporting staff.
Just my .02
I agree that, when they both began as starters, JPW was a better QB than Barker because Barker had less high school QB experience, particularly in the passing game. Barker had better physical tools than JPW, and eventually developed into a much better QB than JPW currently is. Barker's gross stats don't match JPW's because we had a running game in 92-94.
I'd love to be proven wrong and have JPW make All-America, win the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award and finish in the top 5 in the Heisman voting next year, but right now they're not in the same league.
RTR,
Tim
I would argue the opposite - for the same reason.
I think the running game should have made Barker a better passer statistically than he was. He had an incredible game against Georgia in 1994 and everyone remembers him for it, but forgets that for most of his career everyone was screaming for him to be benched in favor of Burgdorf.
Jay was a winner...but he was not a great QB. He was slow and had a weak arm. JPW does not have a cannon, and is not Pat White, but he is more mobile and has a better arm than Barker.
Everyone looks at the UGA game in 1994 as Barker's high water mark, and it was a great game, but it was so anomalous that the likelihood of it being more attributable to UGA's defense than our offense is far greater than taking it as a representation of Barker's passing ability. Barker threw for 300 yards against MSU that year as well...but again it was not the norm...here is a recap of his stats for 1994:
against - comps - attempts - yards
..UTC.......6.........11.......190
.Vandy......9.........15......88
.Arkansas..10.........15......126
.Tulane....12.........22......119
.UGA.......26.........34......396
.USM........9.........14......116
..UT.......10.........19......128
Ole Miss....7.........14......120
.LSU........6.........11......130
.MSU.......26.........35......325
Aubs........8.........17......177
UF.........10.........19......181
I am not knocking Barker, Just the opposite actually. What he did with what he had was a testament to his grit. He was a great leader and a winner, but he did not possess the physical tools that Wilson has. Most of his yards were run after catch. Barker's stats in 1994 were really not very impressive. He won the awards and accolades that he received because of his leadership and winning record, not because of his physical tools or even statistics. If Jay had JPW's physical tools, he would have made it in the NFL. If JPW had Barker's head on his shoulders, we would be playing on New Year's day this year.
If you want to argue technique and skill, you have a, arguable point. I have little doubt that if JPW played for Bebes and had Homer Smith coaching him, that he would perform as well and probably better than Jay...if it were a head to head battle for the starting job, Jay might win out because of intangibles...but not because of physical tools.
Big_Fan said:It Takes Eleven said:Big_Fan said:(snipped)
Either JPW will be much improved in 2008, or we will see someone else under center. JPW was not the root of the problem in 2007. From a skills and physical tools standpoint, he is probably better than Barker, but he lacks the continuity and the supporting staff.
Just my .02
I agree that, when they both began as starters, JPW was a better QB than Barker because Barker had less high school QB experience, particularly in the passing game. Barker had better physical tools than JPW, and eventually developed into a much better QB than JPW currently is. Barker's gross stats don't match JPW's because we had a running game in 92-94.
I'd love to be proven wrong and have JPW make All-America, win the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award and finish in the top 5 in the Heisman voting next year, but right now they're not in the same league.
RTR,
Tim
I would argue the opposite - for the same reason.
I think the running game should have made Barker a better passer statistically than he was. He had an incredible game against Georgia in 1994 and everyone remembers him for it, but forgets that for most of his career everyone was screaming for him to be benched in favor of Burgdorf.
Jay was a winner...but he was not a great QB. He was slow and had a weak arm. JPW does not have a cannon, and is not Pat White, but he is more mobile and has a better arm than Barker.
Everyone looks at the UGA game in 1994 as Barker's high water mark, and it was a great game, but it was so anomalous that the likelihood of it being more attributable to UGA's defense than our offense is far greater than taking it as a representation of Barker's passing ability. Barker threw for 300 yards against MSU that year as well...but again it was not the norm...here is a recap of his stats for 1994:
against - comps - attempts - yards
..UTC.......6.........11.......190
.Vandy......9.........15......88
.Arkansas..10.........15......126
.Tulane....12.........22......119
.UGA.......26.........34......396
.USM........9.........14......116
..UT.......10.........19......128
Ole Miss....7.........14......120
.LSU........6.........11......130
.MSU.......26.........35......325
Aubs........8.........17......177
UF.........10.........19......181
I am not knocking Barker, Just the opposite actually. What he did with what he had was a testament to his grit. He was a great leader and a winner, but he did not possess the physical tools that Wilson has. Most of his yards were run after catch. Barker's stats in 1994 were really not very impressive. He won the awards and accolades that he received because of his leadership and winning record, not because of his physical tools or even statistics. If Jay had JPW's physical tools, he would have made it in the NFL. If JPW had Barker's head on his shoulders, we would be playing on New Year's day this year.
If you want to argue technique and skill, you have a, arguable point. I have little doubt that if JPW played for Bebes and had Homer Smith coaching him, that he would perform as well and probably better than Jay...if it were a head to head battle for the starting job, Jay might win out because of intangibles...but not because of physical tools.
It Takes Eleven said:Big_Fan said:It Takes Eleven said:Big_Fan said:(snipped)
Either JPW will be much improved in 2008, or we will see someone else under center. JPW was not the root of the problem in 2007. From a skills and physical tools standpoint, he is probably better than Barker, but he lacks the continuity and the supporting staff.
Just my .02
I agree that, when they both began as starters, JPW was a better QB than Barker because Barker had less high school QB experience, particularly in the passing game. Barker had better physical tools than JPW, and eventually developed into a much better QB than JPW currently is. Barker's gross stats don't match JPW's because we had a running game in 92-94.
I'd love to be proven wrong and have JPW make All-America, win the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award and finish in the top 5 in the Heisman voting next year, but right now they're not in the same league.
RTR,
Tim
I would argue the opposite - for the same reason.
I think the running game should have made Barker a better passer statistically than he was. He had an incredible game against Georgia in 1994 and everyone remembers him for it, but forgets that for most of his career everyone was screaming for him to be benched in favor of Burgdorf.
Jay was a winner...but he was not a great QB. He was slow and had a weak arm. JPW does not have a cannon, and is not Pat White, but he is more mobile and has a better arm than Barker.
Everyone looks at the UGA game in 1994 as Barker's high water mark, and it was a great game, but it was so anomalous that the likelihood of it being more attributable to UGA's defense than our offense is far greater than taking it as a representation of Barker's passing ability. Barker threw for 300 yards against MSU that year as well...but again it was not the norm...here is a recap of his stats for 1994:
against - comps - attempts - yards
..UTC.......6.........11.......190
.Vandy......9.........15......88
.Arkansas..10.........15......126
.Tulane....12.........22......119
.UGA.......26.........34......396
.USM........9.........14......116
..UT.......10.........19......128
Ole Miss....7.........14......120
.LSU........6.........11......130
.MSU.......26.........35......325
Aubs........8.........17......177
UF.........10.........19......181
I am not knocking Barker, Just the opposite actually. What he did with what he had was a testament to his grit. He was a great leader and a winner, but he did not possess the physical tools that Wilson has. Most of his yards were run after catch. Barker's stats in 1994 were really not very impressive. He won the awards and accolades that he received because of his leadership and winning record, not because of his physical tools or even statistics. If Jay had JPW's physical tools, he would have made it in the NFL. If JPW had Barker's head on his shoulders, we would be playing on New Year's day this year.
If you want to argue technique and skill, you have a, arguable point. I have little doubt that if JPW played for Bebes and had Homer Smith coaching him, that he would perform as well and probably better than Jay...if it were a head to head battle for the starting job, Jay might win out because of intangibles...but not because of physical tools.
The "physical tools" argument can get murky. Folks say physical tools and many times it means arm strength, not accuracy. I remember a story of someone telling Snake that Bert Jones could throw a football to a sixth floor balcony of a hotel, and they asked him if he (Snake) could do the same. Snake's answer was along the lines of "No, and when Jones did it he was aiming for the fourth floor."
I think having a good head on your shoulders is a skill and tools issue. That's a clear distinction, not a fungible quality. Overthrown passes, along with poor decisions on when to throw it away, are part and parcel with skills. Often this year JPW proved inaccurate when he was not pressured. Clearly, Barker's gross statistics don't match up. As you showed, he only attempted 30 passes in a game twice in '94, while JPW averaged 36 attempts per game (Barker had just 18.8 attempts per game). However, completion % and TDs/attempt pushed Barker's efficiency of 152 well beyond JPW's 112. Sure, Barker was surrounded by good players, but his pass blocking was suspect. Despite attempting about one half the passes of JPW, Barker was sacked 38 times in '94 versus 24 for JPW this year (JPW being more mobile probably skewed this stat a bit). Another physical aspect that Barker has over JPW (one that got him a cup of coffee in the NFL) is his size.
I'm not knocking JPW, just comparing him to Barker. You can't make a Frankenstein QB, taking the character and smarts of one and combining it with the arm and legs of others. We'll just have to disagree on the totality of each QB's contributions. The meter's still running on JPW, and I hope he improves and excels.
RTR,
Tim
Big_Fan said:Physical tools versus skill is a clear distinction.
Do you honestly believe that Barker would do better in our current offense than JPW? Barker could not throw the ball downfield and when JPW has time, he is a more accurate passer. Jay was sacked more because he would hold the ball too long. That helped his efficiency numbers. Granted JPW hurt us on a number of INTS's this year, but he did not eat the ball. It helped Jay that he had an offense capable of gaining 1 yard when they needed it and he was not forced to throw on 3rd & 1. Having an effective running game keeps the defense from pinning their ears back like happened a lot this year - and JPW still had fewer sacks against him, but it hurt his stats.
Barker as a great QB is revisionist history...most Bama fans wanted Barker benched for the better part of his career because he was mediocre. Hindsight reveals him to have been a winner, but it wasn't pretty living through it. He had great games when defenses gave 10 yard cushions and would not get rid of the ball when they were covered.
As for size...JPW is 6'2 / 215 or a little heavier. The roster said Jay was 6'4 and about the same weight. Have you ever stood beside Jay?
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