footballer
Member
Coaches are responsible for making players practice their ass off at what they are not good at. We as fans can't know their practice habits, all we can evaluate is product on the court during games.
| MBB/WBB Alabama Men’s Basketball Falls at No. 3/3 Tennessee in Final Seconds, 71-68
- Thread starter UA Press Release
- Start date
BamaFan334
Member
Practice till you get it right. Say what you want, but our guys miss way too many free throws. Like I mentioned before, make a lousy 50% and you win this game and countless more where we shot miserable from the line. Practice makes perfect, so maybe there needs to be more time devoted to it.
The statistics you are providing is simply showing we are still lousy at free throws.
BamaFan334
Member
I'll say this in agreement...
I'm 6'8", was a center at my 3a high school. A "big man" by those standards. Now I could shoot fairly consistent from about a 15' perimeter, so I was more of a 4 than a 5. But definitely a 5 at my small school.
Right around the summer of my freshman year I had my eventual varsity coach pull me aside because he noticed I already had a pretty solid self-taught shooting rhythm, and showed me how to perfect it.
I repped, then repped, then repped some more. By my sophomore year I was starting. Was a 6th/7th man my frosh year. We had a couple guards that shot closed to 50% from the arc. Great shooters.
But guess who shot tech foul shots? The center with a much more consistent and fluid shooting motion... Me.
I was right around an 80% shooter from the line. Even if I was catching a blow, coach would sub me back in to shoot techs.
So yeah, foul shooting is about 80% reps, 20% mental.
2 words: Muscle. Memory...
I'm astounded at how a lot of shooters today can shoot the lights out from 3 with a janky motion that starts from under the chin, like Petty. But when they get to the charity stripe, they suck. It's because of their shooting motion.
And that, I have to agree, comes down to coaching.
TerryP
Staff
I wholeheartedly agree that it does come down to coaching, SLO. And, you've brought up a point here that outweighs a lot of different opinions.
I really don't have an answer to this question other than "very little."
How much time do you think these high school kids are practicing free throws in their spare time? If we consider their time in summer ball—which is quite extensive today—how much of that practice time is spent on free throws? I suspect very little and a lot of that suspicion comes from a "coach" trying to get 10 or so guys to learn to play together. (And, quite frankly, a lot of these summer ball/AAU types don't strike me as guys that teach this, more less someone I'd want to learn a fundamental technique from.
Long past are the days when coaches like Wooden would start coaching from the ground up—literally, in his case, from how to put on socks and shoes.
We've discussed how the game has moved to a scheme that's "outside the arc." We don't see the high posts offenses very often. The more we see the game move away from the basket, the more we're likely to see these numbers reflect the lack of attention.
TerryP
Staff
<ontiptoes.exe>
Certainly has worked out with a few kickers. <img alt="" src="https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.567420689.0744/pp,650x642-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg" style="width: 75px; height: 100px;" />
</runsawayquickly.exe>
#80
Member
I played in High School and have played organized BB for the last 15 years. I believe it's much more than 20% mental. If you look at the box score for the game Ingram, Petty, Jones, Lewis and Jones missed the FT's. Looking at @TerryP's graphics Ingram is shooting a higher percentage this year over last. Petty is basically the same and Jones is lower. Lewis is shooting .841 for the year so these guys went to the line in a hostile environment and did not convert. CAJ is a NBA coach of the year so I can't believe they are not getting enough practice.
What do you think of the free throw transformation of DeAndre Jordan? Hack a Jordan has been going on for almost a decade and suddenly he has figured out the free throw line. At times even dangerous. It seldom happens and I really can't think of another NBA player that overcame these woes.
T
Tidesports!
Avery Johnson didn’t take the easy road after the Alabama basketball team fell short against Tennessee on Saturday.
“We didn’t come up for a moral victory,” Johnson said. “We came here to win. This isn’t like last year when we were the fourth-youngest team in the country. We have an experienced team. I’m proud of how we played. Coming in, I felt good about it. I thought we were going to win.”
Instead, it was Tennessee that hung on for the 71-68 victory. This wasn’t the sort of loss that wrecks a season, battling a top 5 team to the final possession on its home floor. But it could have been the sort of win that could make a team’s season and Alabama had chances to get that sort of win.
It didn’t even get a shot up. The traveling call on John Petty that ended the final Crimson Tide possession was close. Violations of that kind aren’t always called on endgame situations. But a close look at replay after the game shows that Petty didn’t receive the ball cleanly and moved both feet. It was close enough, one of a series of near-misses that kept an upset from happening.
During a prolific second-half offensive run, Alabama missed 8 of 9 free throws. UA finished the game shooting 44.4 percent from the line. Had it matched Tennessee’s sound 75 percent foul shooting, the Crimson Tide might have extended its lead before the final three minutes.
There were other moments that could have gone differently as well. Two shots were blocked in the final minutes — one by Alabama’s Donta Hall (who played at a very high level) wound up in the hands of Tennessee’s Grant Williams for an easy and important putback. A minute earlier, Williams made an athletic defensive play, running to the corner and stretching to full extension to block Petty’s 3-point attempt.
In the postgame, Petty said a pump fake would have been effective (it would have resulted in Williams landing in the third row and given Petty a clear lane to the hoop) but it didn’t happen. On at least two other occasions in the second half, an Alabama player mired in a deep shooting slump took perimeter jumpers that missed the rim by a combined five feet.
In any tight 40-minute contest, every possession matters. Alabama needed more a couple of more possessions with two points and the line instead of zero, a couple of first-half defensive stands where UT’s Jordan Bone didn’t get into the paint quite so easily.
Ultimately this loss isn’t going to hang like an albatross around Alabama’s neck, not in the way that a flat performance against Northeastern did, certainly not in the way that a home loss to a Texas A&M team that has staked a powerful claim to being the worst in the SEC will sting.
Alabama still has chances, although it’s been an exhausting run of 10 years or more — a stretch that started well before Johnson’s arrival in Tuscaloosa — with the Crimson Tide being not quite good enough to make the NCAA Tournament or just slipping into the field. A comfortable February, the kind some SEC teams will have, would be a relief.
“We’re trying to write a book here,” Johnson said. “This was just one chapter. We’re trying to write a book.”
That’s fair enough but Alabama fans are ready for more happy endings and less “Paradise Lost” along the way.
https://www.tidesports.com/cecil-hurt-alabama-loss-to-vols-wont-wreck-the-season-but-it-does-sting/
“We didn’t come up for a moral victory,” Johnson said. “We came here to win. This isn’t like last year when we were the fourth-youngest team in the country. We have an experienced team. I’m proud of how we played. Coming in, I felt good about it. I thought we were going to win.”
Instead, it was Tennessee that hung on for the 71-68 victory. This wasn’t the sort of loss that wrecks a season, battling a top 5 team to the final possession on its home floor. But it could have been the sort of win that could make a team’s season and Alabama had chances to get that sort of win.
It didn’t even get a shot up. The traveling call on John Petty that ended the final Crimson Tide possession was close. Violations of that kind aren’t always called on endgame situations. But a close look at replay after the game shows that Petty didn’t receive the ball cleanly and moved both feet. It was close enough, one of a series of near-misses that kept an upset from happening.
During a prolific second-half offensive run, Alabama missed 8 of 9 free throws. UA finished the game shooting 44.4 percent from the line. Had it matched Tennessee’s sound 75 percent foul shooting, the Crimson Tide might have extended its lead before the final three minutes.
There were other moments that could have gone differently as well. Two shots were blocked in the final minutes — one by Alabama’s Donta Hall (who played at a very high level) wound up in the hands of Tennessee’s Grant Williams for an easy and important putback. A minute earlier, Williams made an athletic defensive play, running to the corner and stretching to full extension to block Petty’s 3-point attempt.
In the postgame, Petty said a pump fake would have been effective (it would have resulted in Williams landing in the third row and given Petty a clear lane to the hoop) but it didn’t happen. On at least two other occasions in the second half, an Alabama player mired in a deep shooting slump took perimeter jumpers that missed the rim by a combined five feet.
In any tight 40-minute contest, every possession matters. Alabama needed more a couple of more possessions with two points and the line instead of zero, a couple of first-half defensive stands where UT’s Jordan Bone didn’t get into the paint quite so easily.
Ultimately this loss isn’t going to hang like an albatross around Alabama’s neck, not in the way that a flat performance against Northeastern did, certainly not in the way that a home loss to a Texas A&M team that has staked a powerful claim to being the worst in the SEC will sting.
Alabama still has chances, although it’s been an exhausting run of 10 years or more — a stretch that started well before Johnson’s arrival in Tuscaloosa — with the Crimson Tide being not quite good enough to make the NCAA Tournament or just slipping into the field. A comfortable February, the kind some SEC teams will have, would be a relief.
“We’re trying to write a book here,” Johnson said. “This was just one chapter. We’re trying to write a book.”
That’s fair enough but Alabama fans are ready for more happy endings and less “Paradise Lost” along the way.
https://www.tidesports.com/cecil-hurt-alabama-loss-to-vols-wont-wreck-the-season-but-it-does-sting/
Now I personally never played formal basketball so not sure I would recognize good technique if I saw it but the results are telling you there is a problem somewhere which I believe is the coaches job to figure out and fix. If we want to bring Saban comments into the thread as some have, here is a quote he has stated a lot - "practice until you can't get it wrong" and is always talking about paying attention to details.
We as fans would not be ok with poor results on the football field. I am not naive enough to think Bama basketball is more than it is but it has been better historically before the Hobbs/Grant days.... There was a little bit of reprieve under Gottfried for a year or two.
From an SEC Rant post shows bama has been in the upper echelon for SEC basketball (not nationally). Not sure how accurate this is or the original source.
Win %
1. Kentucky: 76.4%(Top Nationally)
2. Arkansas: 64.1%(Top 17 Nationally)
3. Alabama: 61.7%(Top 40 Nationally)
4. Tennessee: 60.7%(Top 45 Nationally)
5. Missouri: 58.6%
6. Vanderbilt: 58.5%
7. LSU: 56.6%
8. Florida: 56.1%
9. Miss State: 53.9%
10. South Carolina: 53.2%
11. aTm: 52.8%
12. Auburn: 52.4%
13. Georgia: 51.7%
14. Ole Miss: 49.9%
All Time Wins
1. Kentucky- 2,231 wins(114 years)
2. Arkansas- 1,644 wins(94 years)
3. Alabama- 1,635 wins(104 years)
4. Missouri- 1,602 wins(111 years)
5. Tennessee- 1,599 wins(108 years)
6. Vanderbilt- 1,583 wins(115 years)
7. LSU- 1,516 wins(109 years)
8. Florida- 1,392 wins(98 years)
9. aTm- 1,390 wins(105 years)
10. South Carolina- 1,389 wins(109 years)
11. Miss State- 1,376 wins(105 years)
12. Georgia- 1,361 wins(112 years)
13. Auburn- 1,308 wins(111 years)
14. Ole Miss- 1,278 wins(107 years)
We as fans would not be ok with poor results on the football field. I am not naive enough to think Bama basketball is more than it is but it has been better historically before the Hobbs/Grant days.... There was a little bit of reprieve under Gottfried for a year or two.
From an SEC Rant post shows bama has been in the upper echelon for SEC basketball (not nationally). Not sure how accurate this is or the original source.
Win %
1. Kentucky: 76.4%(Top Nationally)
2. Arkansas: 64.1%(Top 17 Nationally)
3. Alabama: 61.7%(Top 40 Nationally)
4. Tennessee: 60.7%(Top 45 Nationally)
5. Missouri: 58.6%
6. Vanderbilt: 58.5%
7. LSU: 56.6%
8. Florida: 56.1%
9. Miss State: 53.9%
10. South Carolina: 53.2%
11. aTm: 52.8%
12. Auburn: 52.4%
13. Georgia: 51.7%
14. Ole Miss: 49.9%
All Time Wins
1. Kentucky- 2,231 wins(114 years)
2. Arkansas- 1,644 wins(94 years)
3. Alabama- 1,635 wins(104 years)
4. Missouri- 1,602 wins(111 years)
5. Tennessee- 1,599 wins(108 years)
6. Vanderbilt- 1,583 wins(115 years)
7. LSU- 1,516 wins(109 years)
8. Florida- 1,392 wins(98 years)
9. aTm- 1,390 wins(105 years)
10. South Carolina- 1,389 wins(109 years)
11. Miss State- 1,376 wins(105 years)
12. Georgia- 1,361 wins(112 years)
13. Auburn- 1,308 wins(111 years)
14. Ole Miss- 1,278 wins(107 years)
Night and day difference.
BamaFan334
Member
You mean the position you have spent countless posts defending?
TerryP
Staff
That sarcasm code stuck out to ya, eh?
And yes, all of that blame we've seen over the last year against guys has been misplaced.
BamaFan334
Member
I still believe the free throw stripe is where you can win and lose a lot of games. We can't make a free throw when it matters, or when it doesn't for that matter. We have lost a lot of games the past few years by a slim margin and our percentage from the charity stripe shows why. Sure, we turn it over more than I like, but a free shot is easier to get fixed. I'm a big Avery fan and take up for this team, but it's a glaring weakness that can be fixed.
JoseyWalesTheOutlaw
Member
poor free throw shooting shows a real lack of discipline by a player. 365 days a year and the gym is open for practice and all that is needed is a ball. No way they can be spending that much time on their 3 point shots....can you feel me?
I have heard Avery say a few times in post game interviews that we had a tough week of practice and the players responded well. Usually comes after the team has a good win coming after a tough loss. Why aren't all weeks hard and consistent so the teams builds some consistency in play (good and not bad play)?
I kinda have to disagree. I also played college ball on scholly and was set to transfer to Bama when I was diagnosed with a rare heart disorder that was detrimental to my athletic aspirations.
The reason I say foul shooting is only 20% mental is because if you've repped your ass off and have built perfect muscle memory, you don't HAVE to think. You just let your muscles react to what they've been trained to do.
We had a drill in HS at the end of practice where we'd run 5-10 suicides (the total number depended on how well we practiced, but always a minimum of 5) then starting at one end of the line, each player would shoot a front end. If he missed the front end, we'd run 2 more. If he missed the 2nd, we'd only run one. If 3 players in a row made both their FTs, conditioning was over. Guess who coach always placed at the end of the line to ensure maximum conditioning reps? Me, because I was the best foul shooter.
This drill did a couple things: it taught us mental toughness and how to focus on mechanics even when we were tired. And it served as great conditioning. The underlying lesson is whatever one guy did (in this case, if a miss) affected the whole team.
We had a similar drill in college, except we were grouped at 6 groups of 2 (or 3 if we had more than 12), and placed at each of 6 goals (including the 4 cross-court practice goals). Each player would shoot around 5 foul shots, then coach would blow the whistle. We'd run laps around the court, jumping and touching the breakaway box of each gaol as we approached it. After about 3-5 laps, coach would blow the whistle and we'd stop at the closest goal with our pairing and shoot more foul shots while sucking wind. Getting reps while conditioning.
CAJ is a great coach with a great resume' as you mentioned, no doubt. But in the NBA, coaches have to worry less about basic fundamentals because it's the highly-paid players' JOB to stay fundamentally sound.
It's in college where bad habits learned (like poor mechanics) because they weren't coached right in HS/travel ball (like @TerryP mentioned) should be corrected thru repetition. I'm confident that CAJ (as a green COLLEGE coach) has learned this and his adjusting. I bet he had guys repping FTs the next day till their arms felt like Jell-O.
I haven't touched a ball in 5 years, but I guaran-damn-tee you I could still hit 7/10 ice cold because my muscle memory is still that good.
Reps, reps, reps. Then rep some more till you get good enough at it to NOT HAVE TO think about it.
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BamaFan334
Member
$20 on the table for you to run one suicide, shoot five free throws, run one suicide, and then take another five to see if you can make 70%. An unedited video posted on here for everyone's enjoyment will be proof. We need a little offseason fun. Make it $50 if you can do it all after drinking like you do for a gameday, and then in the order above.
JoseyWalesTheOutlaw
Member
$20 on the table for you to run one suicide, shoot five free throws, run one suicide, and then take another five to see if you can make 70%. An unedited video posted on here for everyone's enjoyment will be proof. We need a little offseason fun. Make it $50 if you can do it all after drinking like you do for a gameday, and then in the order above.
Dayum...you're test are hard
$20 on the table for you to run one suicide, shoot five free throws, run one suicide, and then take another five to see if you can make 70%. An unedited video posted on here for everyone's enjoyment will be proof. We need a little offseason fun. Make it $50 if you can do it all after drinking like you do for a gameday, and then in the order above.
Pfft.
I said 7/10 while "ice cold".
Not sweat-drenched pre-blackout.
Lol
