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[footballer]

What does a beating heart do? It pumps life's force through it's body, just as our own hearts do outside the womb.
Life starts with a beating heart, in my opinion. and it should be against the law to kill it, just to save some woman or man
"the trouble" of raising a kid. My body my choice? How about choosing to keep their panties or choosing contraception.

 

[musso]

What is accomplished by incarcerating a vulnerable mother already in such a dire situation that she willingly seeks a most unpleasant murder of her 2 year old?

I assume you're asking that tongue-in-cheek, but I actually find it to be a good question. I tend to ask that same question for many "crimes." The US prison population (the largest in the world) is a very recent historical phenomenon, fueled by Nixon's War on Drugs and the privatization of prisons. It's a national travesty which has disproportionately hurt the poor and minorities while prescription meds and opiates have legally overwhelmed middle and upper class America.

As I've already indicated in this thread, mass incarceration doesn't have to be the answer for every behavior we don't approve of. Historically, extended periods of incarceration were reserved only for extreme criminality and political prisoners and dissidents. Communities have historically handled criminal justice informally among themselves without relying on state or federal authorities. Again, like I've said already, you can impose "punishment" for undesirable behaviors without relying on people in uniform. You have the power to censure and boycott and ostracize. And more importantly, you have the power to preempt the need for abortions by adopting children yourself, donating to families who adopt, advocating for more flexible paths for adoption, donating to organizations that help single mothers, etc. Stop thinking everything bad must be criminalized, and get off your butt and do something to prevent the behavior you despise.

As for how to handle a parent murdering their 2 year old, that's for a different thread. That's such an unlikely scenario compared to abortion. The odds of a mother doing that (or even being tempted to do that) after carrying the child for 9 months, giving birth and caring for the child for the first 2 years are ridiculously low. What is much more likely however, and sadly all too common, is vulnerable mothers and bad parents abusing and neglecting their children. And empirically speaking, we can predict the cost of bad parenting to society. This is why I said in the beginning that parenting should be elective. It's far too important of a job to use as a form of punishment on careless pleasure seekers or for being raped. Parenting is so important for society in fact that we need to offer everyone an exit ramp who isn't up for the challenge. It would be different if more people were willing and able to adopt.

 

[TerryP]

Honest question- when does life begin?

I mean I suppose it is if a person believes “life begins at conception”

Those who aren't "creationist" believe what? In the "Big Bang Theory" when life began ... instantaneously?

 

[musso]

My body my choice? How about choosing to keep their panties or choosing contraception.

And many people do make those choices every day and avoid conception. But statistically speaking, we are talking about the people who fall through the cracks. This is where the debate lies. Do we want people who are already making bad decisions to be forcefully given the biggest responsibility in the world of raising a child? And so many pro-lifers act as if abortions are easy. It's traumatic for every mother who gets one. This means that the alternative of becoming a parent must be that much more frightening to them. And let's be fair, if you're a young female working in a service sector job or not yet settled into a career, you likely will not have access to paid time off to have a child. This means having a child will not only add to your expenses, but diminish your ability to work during the pregnancy and postpartum.

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

This is why I said in the beginning that parenting should be elective.

Last comment on this because we are going in circles. Aside from cases of rape, parenting is elective. If you decide to have sex, you are deciding to take the risk of becoming a parent. If someone gets drunk and drives we accept that they knew the risk ahead of time. This is no different.

I am fine with abortion up to the point where the child could live outside the womb (not heartbeat or any of that crap, but actually viable so more like 24 weeks or later and actually more like 27-30), always have been. I dislike it, but it isn't murder if the embryo could not survive anyway. I just find it interesting how far each side will go in either treating a something like the morning after pill as murder or going the opposite tack and arguing that it is the mother's choice until birth. There is precious little middle ground to be found, yet the majority of the US would be fine in the middle. I don't vote based on abortion rights, they are at most a tie breaker and then only if the person is in the middle like me.

 

[ElephantStomp]

Those who aren't "creationist" believe what? In the "Big Bang Theory" when life began ... instantaneously?

Huge difference. Big Bang and all that has been proven. Life beginning at conception hasn’t been proven, that way of thinking is based on religion not science

 

[TerryP]

Big Bang and all that has been proven.

Uh, what now? Oh shit, man. The Big Bang Theory.

Life beginning at conception hasn’t been proven, that way of thinking is based on religion not science

When two cells merge and create something else it's defined as what in science?

Life at conception hasn't been proven except for the instances where conception led to life. That's such a confusing stance.

 

[ElephantStomp]

Uh, what now? Oh shit, man. The Big Bang Theory.

When two cells merge and create something else it's defined as what in science?

Life at conception hasn't been proven except for the instances where conception led to life. That's such a confusing stance.

I didn’t read your big bang thing correctly.

Life at conception hasn’t been proven or there’d be no argument by the science and medical communities, the only place that thinks it’s proven is churches

 

[TerryP]

Life at conception hasn’t been proven or there’d be no argument by the science and medical communities, the only place that thinks it’s proven is churches

Except the point that you were conceived. When did your life begin? It was at the moment two cells combined. And yes, science has proven that's where it all starts.

Viability? Is that what you're after here?

 

[ElephantStomp]

Except the point that you were conceived. When did your life begin? It was at the moment two cells combined. And yes, science has proven that's where it all starts.

Viability? Is that what you're after here?

The science community doesn’t agree with your opinion or every scientist in the world would agree that abortion is murder.

No that’s not what I’m after.

 

[musso]

The science community doesn’t agree with your opinion or every scientist in the world would agree that abortion is murder.

This non sequitur is very often used in these debates. You can't really have a productive debate if you think it is necessarily true that murder means ending any human life. Murder is a state defined term. For instance, in the Ten Commandments, the Hebrew term for kill in "Thou shalt not kill" is narrow in scope, since elsewhere you find that the state can execute its own subjects and can execute foreigners in wars of aggression.

Criminal justice has customarily prohibited the non-state killing of a self-sufficient (ie viable) adults or children. But when a life isn't viable, it has never been a black or white issue. This is what most pro-lifers fail to admit, for some strange reason. I see no problem equating a fetus to a human life, just as I have no objection to identifying a frail senior citizen on life support as a human being. But I don't support criminalizing the decisions of able bodied adults to stop supporting either group.

 

[XXL TideFan]

Huge difference. Big Bang and all that has been proven. Life beginning at conception hasn’t been proven, that way of thinking is based on religion not science

It’s called the Big Bang Theory not fact.

 

[musso]

Last comment on this because we are going in circles. Aside from cases of rape, parenting is elective. If you decide to have sex, you are deciding to take the risk of becoming a parent. If someone gets drunk and drives we accept that they knew the risk ahead of time. This is no different.

I am fine with abortion up to the point where the child could live outside the womb (not heartbeat or any of that crap, but actually viable so more like 24 weeks or later and actually more like 27-30), always have been. I dislike it, but it isn't murder if the embryo could not survive anyway. I just find it interesting how far each side will go in either treating a something like the morning after pill as murder or going the opposite tack and arguing that it is the mother's choice until birth. There is precious little middle ground to be found, yet the majority of the US would be fine in the middle. I don't vote based on abortion rights, they are at most a tie breaker and then only if the person is in the middle like me.

I think we definitely agree much more than we disagree, but I do think it's interesting to pursue points of disagreement to test our own views. For instance, I disagree with the bold portion above.

You can't equate the primal desire for physical intimacy and the evolutionary drive to leave our genes behind with choosing a particular form of transportation that has only been around for a century or so. We are biologically driven to reproduce but also to experience sexual pleasure independently from reproduction. Yes, sex can lead to reproduction, but it seldom does even when it happens to be the deliberate aim. On the other hand, we are NOT genetically influenced to select a particular mode of transportation from the bar. We have nothing else to blame for electing to drive home drunk over calling an Uber or friend to pick us up. That's on us. Spontaneous erections on the other hand, are not our fault.

I'm going to keep emphasizing this consequentialist point: unlike other species driven to reproduce, our species becomes self-destructive if we reproduce unwisely and don't care for our offspring in careful manner. Also unique to our species is that nukes are in the possession of some of the least cared for humans among us. Hence it's in the interest of planetary security that we parent wisely and breed wisely.

 

[ElephantStomp]

It’s called the Big Bang Theory not fact.

Ok let me simplify it. Evidence shows that it’s as close to fact as we can get. The entire scientific community takes it as close to fact and every observational experiment shows it to be true or as true as we can get

 

[rocknthefreeworld]

I think we definitely agree much more than we disagree, but I do think it's interesting to pursue points of disagreement to test our own views. For instance, I disagree with the bold portion above.

You can't equate the primal desire for physical intimacy and the evolutionary drive to leave our genes behind with choosing a particular form of transportation that has only been around for a century or so. We are biologically driven to reproduce but also to experience sexual pleasure independently from reproduction. Yes, sex can lead to reproduction, but it seldom does even when it happens to be the deliberate aim. On the other hand, we are NOT genetically influenced to select a particular mode of transportation from the bar. We have nothing else to blame for electing to drive home drunk over calling an Uber or friend to pick us up. That's on us. Spontaneous erections on the other hand, are not our fault.

I'm going to keep emphasizing this consequentialist point: unlike other species driven to reproduce, our species becomes self-destructive if we reproduce unwisely and don't care for our offspring in careful manner. Also unique to our species is that nukes are in the possession of some of the least cared for humans among us. Hence it's in the interest of planetary security that we parent wisely and breed wisely.

If that drive is so strong that we should excuse people from their actions due to it then rape should be perfectly legal.

 

[XXL TideFan]

Ok let me simplify it. Evidence shows that it’s as close to fact as we can get. The entire scientific community takes it as close to fact and every observational experiment shows it to be true or as true as we can get

Your mind is simple enough. It is a theory as in unproven, just as evolution is a theory. When a researchers funding and therefore livelihood depend on “creating facts” to point to a desired outcome, you don’t have science. I bet you’re a greenie losing your mind over cow farts killing us all with global warming.

 

[ElephantStomp]

Your mind is simple enough. It is a theory as in unproven, just as evolution is a theory. When a researchers funding and therefore livelihood depend on “creating facts” to point to a desired outcome, you don’t have science. I bet you’re a greenie losing your mind over cow farts killing us all with global warming.

Ok I can see talking to you is like talking to a wall. All of your comments usually end with you calling somebody something ie “I bet you’re a greenie”……when you have to resort to talking crap it usual means you don’t have the intelligence to further engage with

 

[musso]

If that drive is so strong that we should excuse people from their actions due to it then rape should be perfectly legal.

Another non sequitur. Being predisposed to particular behaviors and having biological urges doesn't justify anything, especially if it involves aggression towards another person who "belongs" to others or is otherwise viable. I only brought that up to counter your false equivalency of having sex and driving drunk. I'm sorry if I'm the first to tell you this, but most sexual encounters are spontaneous, not an event decided in advance like a doctor's appointment. One or both participants usually have to be "in the mood" which cannot always be predicted and planned.

FYI that's all the sex ed I feel comfortable offering you at this time.

 

[footballer]

Men, women need to practice self control. Sex starts in your mind, no where else. If you can't control urges and lust for sex,
then what other urges can they not control? If you can't control yourself and give in to lust and not use contraceptives, then you should be made to accept the consequences and not take the life of an innocent, unborn child.

 

[musso]

Men, women need to practice self control. Sex starts in your mind, no where else. If you can't control urges and lust for sex,
then what other urges can they not control? If you can't control yourself and give in to lust and not use contraceptives, then you should be made to accept the consequences and not take the life of an innocent, unborn child.

That's just simplistic and naive to assume people cannot control other urges just because they have an unplanned pregnancy. Perhaps you're not aware, but there are a myriad of circumstances that can lead to an unplanned pregnancy, let alone a planned pregnancy that at some point goes awry and the woman no longer wants to complete it or is too poor or unfit to care for a special needs child.

And with regard to the other highlighted portion above, this echoes what I already mentioned in this thread about how odd it is that pro-lifers use their stance to punish unprepared parents. Think that through. You want to punish a mother by forcing her to become a parent. You're using that "innocent, unborn child" as a means of punishment. How is that not dehumanizing? How is that not using "a human life" in a trivial manner? In any other context would you ever think it was wise to punish a wrong-doer by giving them custody of a newborn baby? It's very peculiar that you and other pro-lifers value parenting and the family so little that you would force it upon others who are unfit or unprepared. To love, care, and train a child is far too critical of a responsibility to force it upon non-consenting people.