| CURRENT EVENTS Tulsi Gabbard~ "I can no longer remain in today’s Democratic Party ..."

Religious texts are not a valid argument for or against laws. You would not like it if another religion became the majority and imposed their religion on you.
I’ve seen many Jewish groups claim that abortion is their religious right as has the Satanist Church. So are you Jewish or Satanist? By definition those groups along with religious atheists have forced their beliefs on the country since Roe v Wade was granted.

St. Paul in 1 Thessolanians 2:15&16
15 They killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and they drove us out. Their conduct does not please God and makes them the enemies of the entire human race
16 as they want to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles, so that they may be saved. They are still bringing their sins to full measure, but the wrath is finally coming upon them.

Your in good company.
 
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You make a lot of assumptions based off the fact that I would not install a religious dictatorship.

Putting people in groups makes it easy for some people, particularly if they have a bent for or against them.

Some who are for abortion are not Jewish or satanist, I'd venture. I've heard some forward the despicable position that they are for abortion only because minorities represent an outsized portion of them. They then pass themselves off as Christian. I see abortion as an immoral, selfish act, while others say it's selfish to bring a child into the world if you can't care for it.

The only certain thing about where this thread has arrived is that no one will change their mind because of what is posted here. It's now just an opportunity to trumpet, and group people.
 
I’ve seen many Jewish groups claim that abortion is their religious right as has the Satanist Church. So are you Jewish or Satanist? By definition those groups along with religious atheists have forced their beliefs on the country since Roe v Wade was granted.

St. Paul in 1 Thessolanians 2:15&16
15 They killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and they drove us out. Their conduct does not please God and makes them the enemies of the entire human race
16 as they want to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles, so that they may be saved. They are still bringing their sins to full measure, but the wrath is finally coming upon them.

Your in good company.
I am neither Jewish or Satanist.
 
I can understand someone believing abortion is morally wrong. I can't understand why someone would want the government to intervene and make it illegal. There is no property more private than one's private parts.

Parenthood should be elective, not compulsory. Parenthood is too difficult and too impactful upon the broader society to be forced upon people who aren't ready for the responsibility or who were only seeking physical intimacy to begin with.
 
I can understand someone believing abortion is morally wrong. I can't understand why someone would want the government to intervene and make it illegal. There is no property more private than one's private parts.

Parenthood should be elective, not compulsory. Parenthood is too difficult and too impactful upon the broader society to be forced upon people who aren't ready for the responsibility or who were only seeking physical intimacy to begin with.
I would agree, mostly. I would say that there is a point during a pregnancy where it isn't about property anymore and more about murder. That point isn't as early as 14 weeks, but it isn't as late as 30 weeks. That's why I have always been able to support the original Roe v Wade decision, even if it was flawed.
 
I can understand someone believing abortion is morally wrong. I can't understand why someone would want the government to intervene and make it illegal. There is no property more private than one's private parts.

Parenthood should be elective, not compulsory. Parenthood is too difficult and too impactful upon the broader society to be forced upon people who aren't ready for the responsibility or who were only seeking physical intimacy to begin with.
Elect to not allow being impregnated. Elect to not impregnate someone. It really is that simple unless the argument is made that none can control their primal urges. Should that be the case then make the case for mandatory sterilization after committing 1 or 2 said offenses, male or female.
 
I would agree, mostly. I would say that there is a point during a pregnancy where it isn't about property anymore and more about murder. That point isn't as early as 14 weeks, but it isn't as late as 30 weeks. That's why I have always been able to support the original Roe v Wade decision, even if it was flawed.
From a practical perspective, I didn't have a problem with Roe v Wade. From a legal perspective, the federal government didn't have a right to dictate to the states. We've never had federal laws against murder, rape, etc. It should have always remained a state issue.

The way I see it, we need to revisit why we oppose murder in the first place before arguing our abortion stances. Before the modern doctrine of equality and human rights, there were other more tangible reasons why all societies banned murder.

My opinion is that all societies have recognized implicitly, if not explicitly, that the sudden removal of members from a tribe, especially productive members, is destabilizing. Long before the notion of inalienable rights, ancient humans would have recognized that individuals belonged to each other. A father belongs to his child, a brother belongs to his sibling(s) and parent(s), a teacher belongs to her students, a merchant belongs to his customers, etc. To unilaterally remove someone in a rogue manner is a form of theft against the community who relied on him/her in some way. Now if the community decides someone is unproductive, destructive, anti-social, or otherwise uncooperative, then killing is allowed. This is why capital punishment was always the exception to the rule against killing. Authorities may kill, but subjects may not.

So what does this rambling have to do with abortion? Well I think we need to recognize that a fetus doesn't belong to anyone besides its parents, primarily its host mother. It hasn't formed bonds with anyone in the larger community. A fetus hasn't taken its place as a provider or supplier of a product or skill valued by the community. To a large degree, this was one of the functions of initiation rituals -- a declaration to the community that an adolescent has now emerged from the sovereignty of its home (ie parents) into the realm of the community and now is now deemed an adult subject to the laws of the community's sovereign (ie monarch). What happened to the child before this rite of passage was primarily the business of the family to be handled under the parents' roof. If the parents didn't want a child, particularly as an unborn or newborn, they could always "dispose" of the child in a myriad of ways from within the privacy of their "castle." "Accidents" happen. It never had to reach the ears of magistrates, particularly in an age when many children didn't survive anyway from the harshness of real life.

I think it's useful to remember that our modern sensibilities are too easily offended because of the comforts of our age. Consider how easily offended "woke" people are in academia and in urban/metropolitan centers. As modernity brings us leisure, it softens us up to every wrong in the world, and as legacy wrongs disappear we feel the need to invent new ones. Think of how privileged we are that our basic needs are met so well that we can be obsessed with how unprepared and scared mothers deal with their unwanted pregnancies and then demand punishment if they decide they aren't fit, either physically, emotionally, or financially for 9 months of pregnancy and/or child delivery.

Then there's the issue of how so few households adopt unwanted children, the child trafficking epidemic, chronic child abuse in orphanages, etc. I might consider criminalizing abortion if and when the demand for adoption finally exceeds the supply of unwanted children ... and when war between nuclear powers isn't happening ... and when peaceful drug users aren't rotting in prison ... and when corrupt governments are no longer forcing people to consume the products of pharmaceutical companies shielded from liability...
 
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Elect to not allow being impregnated. Elect to not impregnate someone. It really is that simple unless the argument is made that none can control their primal urges. Should that be the case then make the case for mandatory sterilization after committing 1 or 2 said offenses, male or female.
Some can control their primal urges, and some cannot. And some can control their primal urges some of the time. You're just oversimplifying.

At least you have the courage to push the pro-life stance to its logical conclusion: omnipresent government surveillance of all romantic encounters between males and females, with drones swooping down just as things get hot to diagnose the financial status, loyalty, physical and emotional health of the participants before allowing them to carry on with their primal urges. Lol, Orwell and Huxley would appreciate that.

As for me, I'm with Mises:
A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
 
Now if the community decides someone is unproductive, destructive, anti-social, or otherwise uncooperative, then killing is allowed. This is why capital punishment was always the exception to the rule against killing. Authorities may kill, but subjects may not.

So what does this rambling have to do with abortion? Well I think we need to recognize that a fetus doesn't belong to anyone besides its parents, primarily its host mother. It hasn't formed bonds with anyone in the larger community. A fetus hasn't taken its place as a provider or supplier of a product or skill valued by the community. To a large degree, this was one of the functions of initiation
Are you now making the argument that “killing” is acceptable until someone is working and paying taxes? Snuff out old folks when they are unable to work and a burden to their former loved ones? Libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion posits that government exists only to enforce contract law and to prevent violence between its citizens. I was a proponent of said libertarianism at one time and it is not tenable in real life.
 
Are you now making the argument that “killing” is acceptable until someone is working and paying taxes? Snuff out old folks when they are unable to work and a burden to their former loved ones? Libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion posits that government exists only to enforce contract law and to prevent violence between its citizens. I was a proponent of said libertarianism at one time and it is not tenable in real life.
It’s not “killing”. Honest question- when does life begin?
 
Are you now making the argument that “killing” is acceptable until someone is working and paying taxes? Snuff out old folks when they are unable to work and a burden to their former loved ones? Libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion posits that government exists only to enforce contract law and to prevent violence between its citizens. I was a proponent of said libertarianism at one time and it is not tenable in real life.
No, I didn't say anything is "acceptable." I'm saying that it's unique to a late-stage civilization when people today equate the murder of a healthy, productive adult to a mother not wanting to complete her pregnancy. Not every action that is shameful and taboo needs to be criminal because not every shameful act robs from the community.

And something I didn't include earlier due to how long my post was becoming is how predictable it is that anti-social adults were once unwanted, abused, and/or neglected as children. There are negative externalities by forcing the births of children into the arms of mothers who don't care and who might not have been properly cared for themselves while the fetus was in utero.
 
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Sorry. This is garbage. Under this you might as well allow parents to kill their children as long as they haven't sent them to school or socialized them. Maybe even later.
I'm not suggesting we "allow" anything. I'm suggesting that criminalizing behavior doesn't always result in a net positive for society. It wasn't too long ago that many behaviors now illegal were legally tolerated but still resulted in social pressure, censure, and marginalization. Often times, people were forced to relocate after being shunned by a community after violating social norms. Individual behaviors can be discouraged without becoming a burden on taxpayers via incarceration. I mean, ask yourself, what is accomplished by incarcerating a vulnerable mother already in such a dire situation that she willingly seeks a most unpleasant abortion procedure? What is gained by incarcerating the physician who assists said mother who desperately wants to avoid parenthood and/or the physical, emotional, and financial toll of 9 months of pregnancy? And with so few people wanting to adopt, it is myopic to think simply prohibiting abortion is a productive policy.
 
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I’m sorry, but this is hyperbole. Abortion (early stage) and the murder of a born child isn’t even remotely the same.

I mean I suppose it is if a person believes “life begins at conception”
Did you read the entire post I was responding to?

It hasn't formed bonds with anyone in the larger community. A fetus hasn't taken its place as a provider or supplier of a product or skill valued by the community. To a large degree, this was one of the functions of initiation rituals -- a declaration to the community that an adolescent has now emerged from the sovereignty of its home (ie parents) into the realm of the community and now is now deemed an adult subject to the laws of the community's sovereign (ie monarch). What happened to the child before this rite of passage was primarily the business of the family to be handled under the parents' roof. If the parents didn't want a child, particularly as an unborn or newborn, they could always "dispose" of the child in a myriad of ways from within the privacy of their "castle." "Accidents" happen. It never had to reach the ears of magistrates, particularly in an age when many children didn't survive anyway from the harshness of real life.
 
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