| FTBL Defensive Graphic

[Brandon Van de Graaff]

Question... if what he did is legal now, what can he possibly break rule wise and what could the SEC say as far as concerns? If he has been out of football for years, how can they keep him out longer with a clause? He doesn't get time served? I just wonder if anyone else in football cares anymore, outside of simply seeing Alabama fix it's issues and get back on top.

That's where is gets muddy. What he did wasn't good (certainly wasn't smart). But more than likely, he will catch the full brunt of the punishment while Tennessee comes out clean (relatively speaking). The silly part of that is, Fulmer and the program had their fingerprints all over it from the start. Does getting rid of the main guilty actors absolve them from punishment? For the most part, it will, but it shouldn't, not in a case like that (see also Will Wade and LSU). But Alabama hiring him would involve a fight- with the SEC, with the Vols, and with the media (and likely with the NCAA). The two things Saban and Byrne would have to decide, is the fight worth it? At this point, I think they'd say no. But I do think an analyst position is more realistic (even though it still comes with a slightly watered down version of those same battles).

 

[Crimson&WhiteGecko]

That's where is gets muddy. What he did wasn't good (certainly wasn't smart). But more than likely, he will catch the full brunt of the punishment while Tennessee comes out clean (relatively speaking). The silly part of that is, Fulmer and the program had their fingerprints all over it from the start. Does getting rid of the main guilty actors absolve them from punishment? For the most part, it will, but it shouldn't, not in a case like that (see also Will Wade and LSU). But Alabama hiring him would involve a fight- with the SEC, with the Vols, and with the media (and likely with the NCAA). The two things Saban and Byrne would have to decide, is the fight worth it? At this point, I think they'd say no. But I do think an analyst position is more realistic (even though it still comes with a slightly watered down version of those same battles).

I'm personally fine with hiring Pruitt in whatever capacity just for the sake of to everyone else, especially UT... That's just me.

 

[UAgrad93]

Piss on Sankey and Piss on the Viles! Bring Pruitt back home!!

 

[252BAMA]

Not predicting anything, but he's a name to watch. I do think he will probably choose to remain in the NFL though.



Correct. One is coming, but he doesn't have it yet. Regardless, a coach can still be hired with one (although it does invite issues and added scrutiny). Sankey would 100% be against it, as would the Vols (and possibly some others in the conference). Question is, what could Sankey and the SEC ultimately do about it? Saban and Bama have always bent over backwards to appease Sankey, often times when it was against UA's best interests. With the way Sankey has allowed others to bend and break written (and unwritten) rules, how much longer should Alabama bend their knee? Sankey could (would) try and attach conditional threats/warnings to a Pruitt hire, but I'm also not sure how smart it would be on his part to poke the bear that has brought the SEC the honey pot for much of the last 15 years. In the end, Saban and Byrne are both professionals and not the type to go against the SEC grain... but with the way things are now with(out) rules, and looking around and seeing how some things have (and haven't) been handled throughout the league in recent years... at some point the straw breaks the camel's back. It's still more of a "hope" than a realistic scenario at this point though.

I use another phrase, but IMO, the SEC has been intent on killing the goose laying the golden eggs for many many years. Started with Kramer of course but has never ceased.

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

Barring something really unforeseen at this point, Golding will be moving on (it won't look like a "firing").

Saban would love to have Pruitt, but that is going to be really, really difficult to make happen to say the least. At best, UA might could push the boundaries and get him in as an analyst (which would be huge). Pruitt wants to come back, did last year too though. Takes more than that, and it's out of his (and even Saban's) hands. As for another option, I've been on the Schumann train for a while. I'd throw $1.6 at him (more if needed). He's been at Bama, went to grad school at Bama (met his wife while here). Knows the Saban system, and what's expected of him. He's been lauded as guy who does a great job teaching the defense and getting players to understand it (something that has been lacking at times). Perhaps most importantly, he's running the Saban system 2.0 right now, which he helped build with Kirby. I think (hope?) Saban may make an adjustment with this hire, the way he did when he brought in Kiffin as OC and changed the offense for the better. It's harder for him to make that change on defense, because that's his baby, but I think he knows he's going to have to be more flexible there if he's going to have the success that he wants to have.

The problem is what went on at UcheaT under his nose that probably won't be adjudicated by the NZAA until after this season, in which case a looming show-cause could very well be levied against Pruitt. That'll put him at least to 2025 or further before he can coach college ball again.

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

Is it bad (since this season is pretty much over) that I hope Kiffin embarrasses Pete Golding this Saturday, forcing Saban to go ahead and pull the plug on this vegetable of a defense?

 

[Brandon Van de Graaff]

The problem is what went on at UcheaT under his nose that probably won't be adjudicated by the NZAA until after this season, in which case a looming show-cause could very well be levied against Pruitt. That'll put him at least to 2025 or further before he can coach college ball again.

A coach can be hired during a show-cause, they just rarely are. I don't recall offhand one being hire before the looming show-cause hits, but I'd imagine it's doable too (even if not recommended). Hopefully, it's a moot point and Saban gets Schumann or someone similar, makes the necessary adjustments to his scheme, and Bama "fixes the glitch."

 

[ElephantStomp]

Is it bad (since this season is pretty much over) that I hope Kiffin embarrasses Pete Golding this Saturday, forcing Saban to go ahead and pull the plug on this vegetable of a defense?

PG will be gone after the season

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

PG will be gone after the season

I'm certain of that, but at this point, going ahead and canning him immediately after another embarrassment will only stop the bleeding.

 

[Brandon Van de Graaff]

I'm certain of that, but at this point, going ahead and canning him immediately after another embarrassment will only stop the bleeding.

Saban isn't ever going to throw a guy to the wolves like that (closest he came was Kiffin and he had no other choice, but even then he game him a very, very soft landing [in public]). Nor should he, IMO. Golding has been loyal to Saban, he's had chances to leave and will have zero issues getting a new gig if he's let go. Also. folks will find out that "Golding's" defense looks a little different from "Saban's" defense if/when he goes elsewhere... I think a change needs to be made at this point, but the bottom line is, unless Saban agrees to more flexibility in his schemes (like he evolved with his offensive philosophy several years back), then it really isn't going to matter who is hired... its going to be a lot of the same issues popping up on gameday.

 

[BamaFan334]

Saban isn't ever going to throw a guy to the wolves like that (closest he came was Kiffin and he had no other choice, but even then he game him a very, very soft landing [in public]). Nor should he, IMO. Golding has been loyal to Saban, he's had chances to leave and will have zero issues getting a new gig if he's let go. Also. folks will find out that "Golding's" defense looks a little different from "Saban's" defense if/when he goes elsewhere... I think a change needs to be made at this point, but the bottom line is, unless Saban agrees to more flexibility in his schemes (like he evolved with his offensive philosophy several years back), then it really isn't going to matter who is hired... its going to be a lot of the same issues popping up on gameday.

I definitely respect your opinion here, but when simply looking at the graphic, what changed so much in four to five years that Golding has underperformed compared to the guys before him that dealt with more monumental shifts in offensive play calling? Kirby hasn't had those same issues for instance in those years. We dealt with manziel, Cameron Newton, Mullen's offenses, Malzahn's, and a lot of others when we were sporting top defenses. Now, we did get pushed around some in those games, but we still won enough to be in the Natty hunt. Not to mention with our own offensive changes under Kiffin and Sarkesian, how have we not learned how to defend ourselves? I say all of that questioning the blame on Saban's schemes. Was it his decision, or approval, to run what we did in the Tennessee game, something I don't ever recall us doing, ever.

 

[Brandon Van de Graaff]

I definitely respect your opinion here, but when simply looking at the graphic, what changed so much in four to five years that Golding has underperformed compared to the guys before him that dealt with more monumental shifts in offensive play calling? Kirby hasn't had those same issues for instance in those years. We dealt with manziel, Cameron Newton, Mullen's offenses, Malzahn's, and a lot of others when we were sporting top defenses. Now, we did get pushed around some in those games, but we still won enough to be in the Natty hunt. Not to mention with our own offensive changes under Kiffin and Sarkesian, how have we not learned how to defend ourselves? I say all of that questioning the blame on Saban's schemes. Was it his decision, or approval, to run what we did in the Tennessee game, something I don't ever recall us doing, ever.

The soft underbelly of Saban's scheme has been mid/deep middle in the passing game (this includes LB's in coverage). Often times in the past he's had the horses and it didn't matter (also wasn't usually an issue against the pro-style slogging offenses that Bama usually dominated). The problem as I see it is double sided, and it's nothing more than my opinion. One, the vulnerabilities of the safeties in coverage, especially against a team like Heupel's Tennessee (and we all remember Kiffin and Ole Miss in '20) that attacks the deep middle. In fairness, on the other side of that coin, Bama is normally fantastic against the Leach/adapted air raid system where stuff stays in front and goes east/west. Two, the coverage responsibilities are overly complicated. The HUNH teams thrive on that and force mental mistakes that lead to busted plays, but it happens with other offenses too. Way too often, guys are thinking instead of reacting, and it usually leads to a high cost. An overall simplification of the scheme would be helpful (again, my opinion). It would also allow more depth in theory. This season for example, it took a bit for Saban to gain the trust of Eli Ricks. Maybe if he had picked things up earlier, he'd have earned that trust much faster, and been on the field quicker.

Other issues like lack of development with DL has contributed as well. Against UGA for example, Hooker couldn't keep his eyes downfield because his OL was getting their ass whipped on every snap.

How much sits in the lap of Golding vs. Saban? We will never fully know. Golding gets a long leash, but he's working within Saban's parameters. Saban, as he's said as recently as a few days ago, has veto power (although that's hard to do these days against a team like the Vols who are high octane). Usually it's Saban who makes the bigger adjustments between series/half though. It's really impossible to tell from the tv broadcasts, but it would be interesting to see if Saban is more vocal on the headsets during the defensive play calls tomorrow in Oxford. I doubt he will be, I think this pony gets ridden to the end of the year, but if he is that is signal that a change could be looming.

 

[Justneedme81]

The soft underbelly of Saban's scheme has been mid/deep middle in the passing game (this includes LB's in coverage). Often times in the past he's had the horses and it didn't matter (also wasn't usually an issue against the pro-style slogging offenses that Bama usually dominated). The problem as I see it is double sided, and it's nothing more than my opinion. One, the vulnerabilities of the safeties in coverage, especially against a team like Heupel's Tennessee (and we all remember Kiffin and Ole Miss in '20) that attacks the deep middle. In fairness, on the other side of that coin, Bama is normally fantastic against the Leach/adapted air raid system where stuff stays in front and goes east/west. Two, the coverage responsibilities are overly complicated. The HUNH teams thrive on that and force mental mistakes that lead to busted plays, but it happens with other offenses too. Way too often, guys are thinking instead of reacting, and it usually leads to a high cost. An overall simplification of the scheme would be helpful (again, my opinion). It would also allow more depth in theory. This season for example, it took a bit for Saban to gain the trust of Eli Ricks. Maybe if he had picked things up earlier, he'd have earned that trust much faster, and been on the field quicker.

Other issues like lack of development with DL has contributed as well. Against UGA for example, Hooker couldn't keep his eyes downfield because his OL was getting their ass whipped on every snap.

How much sits in the lap of Golding vs. Saban? We will never fully know. Golding gets a long leash, but he's working within Saban's parameters. Saban, as he's said as recently as a few days ago, has veto power (although that's hard to do these days against a team like the Vols who are high octane). Usually it's Saban who makes the bigger adjustments between series/half though. It's really impossible to tell from the tv broadcasts, but it would be interesting to see if Saban is more vocal on the headsets during the defensive play calls tomorrow in Oxford. I doubt he will be, I think this pony gets ridden to the end of the year, but if he is that is signal that a change could be looming.

This make sense. If we struggle on 3rd downs, I can see Saban stepping in earlier than expected.

 

[BamaFan334]

The soft underbelly of Saban's scheme has been mid/deep middle in the passing game (this includes LB's in coverage). Often times in the past he's had the horses and it didn't matter (also wasn't usually an issue against the pro-style slogging offenses that Bama usually dominated). The problem as I see it is double sided, and it's nothing more than my opinion. One, the vulnerabilities of the safeties in coverage, especially against a team like Heupel's Tennessee (and we all remember Kiffin and Ole Miss in '20) that attacks the deep middle. In fairness, on the other side of that coin, Bama is normally fantastic against the Leach/adapted air raid system where stuff stays in front and goes east/west. Two, the coverage responsibilities are overly complicated. The HUNH teams thrive on that and force mental mistakes that lead to busted plays, but it happens with other offenses too. Way too often, guys are thinking instead of reacting, and it usually leads to a high cost. An overall simplification of the scheme would be helpful (again, my opinion). It would also allow more depth in theory. This season for example, it took a bit for Saban to gain the trust of Eli Ricks. Maybe if he had picked things up earlier, he'd have earned that trust much faster, and been on the field quicker.

Other issues like lack of development with DL has contributed as well. Against UGA for example, Hooker couldn't keep his eyes downfield because his OL was getting their ass whipped on every snap.

How much sits in the lap of Golding vs. Saban? We will never fully know. Golding gets a long leash, but he's working within Saban's parameters. Saban, as he's said as recently as a few days ago, has veto power (although that's hard to do these days against a team like the Vols who are high octane). Usually it's Saban who makes the bigger adjustments between series/half though. It's really impossible to tell from the tv broadcasts, but it would be interesting to see if Saban is more vocal on the headsets during the defensive play calls tomorrow in Oxford. I doubt he will be, I think this pony gets ridden to the end of the year, but if he is that is signal that a change could be looming.

The question remains, why are the schemes so difficult, still? You take a freshman All-American and lose half a season due to scheme, and injury. Now back to why they haven't found a way to work within the talent perameters? Have we just rested on our laurels and just gotten lucky all these years?

 

[NickelDoubleDog]

The question remains, why are the schemes so difficult, still? You take a freshman All-American and lose half a season due to scheme, and injury. Now back to why they haven't found a way to work within the talent perameters? Have we just rested on our laurels and just gotten lucky all these years?

The schemes are difficult due to the DC. They weren't difficult when Pruitt was coaching. They aren't difficult for UGA with the same underlying scheme.

Golding isn't creative in how he devises pressure packages and hasn't ever implemented much for Sim pressures. UGA does. Golding is very poor calling the defensive game on the fly, and can't adjust in games well. UGA's D staff with Schuman (Lanning before) and Muschamp can.

Golding has so many checks in his calls that players are thinking all the time. Then as soon as there is motion or a shift, everyone's responsibility changes, and they have to effectively communicate in a loud environment while thinking about their job. It leads to busts.

And there's just fundamentally bad gameplans, like last week not accounting for the QB run, playing soft in the box, yet being conservative with 2 deep safeties. It allows for back breaking 3rd down conversions, which has been the story for 2 seasons in big games.

 

[Brandon Van de Graaff]

The schemes are difficult due to the DC. They weren't difficult when Pruitt was coaching. They aren't difficult for UGA with the same underlying scheme.

Golding isn't creative in how he devises pressure packages and hasn't ever implemented much for Sim pressures. UGA does. Golding is very poor calling the defensive game on the fly, and can't adjust in games well. UGA's D staff with Schuman (Lanning before) and Muschamp can.

Golding has so many checks in his calls that players are thinking all the time. Then as soon as there is motion or a shift, everyone's responsibility changes, and they have to effectively communicate in a loud environment while thinking about their job. It leads to busts.

And there's just fundamentally bad gameplans, like last week not accounting for the QB run, playing soft in the box, yet being conservative with 2 deep safeties. It allows for back breaking 3rd down conversions, which has been the story for 2 seasons in big games.

^^^This^^^

One thing I'd add, compared to his predecessors, Golding does a poorer job teaching/coaching the scheme. Put him on a white board in front of the defensive coaches and he's fine. But doing it to young college kids often times takes a different approach. Guys like Pruitt and Kirby were really good at getting guys to understand it. Schumann is of that mold too (potentially better than any of them in that regard).

 

[BamaFan334]

The schemes are difficult due to the DC. They weren't difficult when Pruitt was coaching. They aren't difficult for UGA with the same underlying scheme.

Golding isn't creative in how he devises pressure packages and hasn't ever implemented much for Sim pressures. UGA does. Golding is very poor calling the defensive game on the fly, and can't adjust in games well. UGA's D staff with Schuman (Lanning before) and Muschamp can.

Golding has so many checks in his calls that players are thinking all the time. Then as soon as there is motion or a shift, everyone's responsibility changes, and they have to effectively communicate in a loud environment while thinking about their job. It leads to busts.

And there's just fundamentally bad gameplans, like last week not accounting for the QB run, playing soft in the box, yet being conservative with 2 deep safeties. It allows for back breaking 3rd down conversions, which has been the story for 2 seasons in big games.

This is what I was trying to get to. I don't think this is solely on Saban, so I was hoping others that are a little closer to the program or even coaches in their own right would provide the answer I was looking to get to so I wouldn't simply come across as a Golding hater, as I have been down on him for years!

You bring up last week's game, and did you and I not discuss Daniels ability to run and him being more of a Hurts style player than a Young/Hooker type of player where they are one look and run??? Did I not say we should have ran the Tennessee defense against LSU where we spy him a week leading up to this exact game? I'm considering us ordinary fans because we are not in the football facility ourselves, but if we could see it from a mile away, you wonder why a guy making almost $2M a year couldn't see it and failed his team yet again. I see it as this, Saban isn't a babysitter. Ultimately his coaches are his responsibility, but he's the boss and pays them a lot of money to do their job and take on the responsibility of their title. If Saban sticks with Golding, then it's on him as a whole, but the game by game decisions are Goldings and therefor I see all of this we are discussing on him.

 

[NickelDoubleDog]

This is what I was trying to get to. I don't think this is solely on Saban, so I was hoping others that are a little closer to the program or even coaches in their own right would provide the answer I was looking to get to so I wouldn't simply come across as a Golding hater, as I have been down on him for years!

You bring up last week's game, and did you and I not discuss Daniels ability to run and him being more of a Hurts style player than a Young/Hooker type of player where they are one look and run??? Did I not say we should have ran the Tennessee defense against LSU where we spy him a week leading up to this exact game? I'm considering us ordinary fans because we are not in the football facility ourselves, but if we could see it from a mile away, you wonder why a guy making almost $2M a year couldn't see it and failed his team yet again. I see it as this, Saban isn't a babysitter. Ultimately his coaches are his responsibility, but he's the boss and pays them a lot of money to do their job and take on the responsibility of their title. If Saban sticks with Golding, then it's on him as a whole, but the game by game decisions are Goldings and therefor I see all of this we are discussing on him.

Golding had one special pressure package vs. LSU and it was the worst possible. It's been diagonosed on Twitter. But to not have other pressure packages makes no sense.

Essentially, Golding was running a Dime defense on 3rd and medium downs. All LBs were on the LOS showing blitz pre-snap, and actually blitzing. There were NO second level players since everyone was on the LOS declaring blitz.

Then, we have both Battle and Hellams playing split field safety at like 15 yards depth. They cannot help on a run effectively, they are too deep to help on QB scramble (which happened), and they are too deep to help defend passes thrown near the sticks to stop a first down. They are playing ULTRA conservative at the third level, and ultra aggressive at the LOS, but without the size or numbers to defend vs. an LSU offense that had 1 RB and 1 TE (6 potential blockers plus a RB and a QB who runs vs. a 5 or 5.5 man box depending how you classify Branch's alignment). It's insane

 

[Sgt. Lincoln Osiris]

Saban isn't ever going to throw a guy to the wolves like that (closest he came was Kiffin and he had no other choice, but even then he game him a very, very soft landing [in public]). Nor should he, IMO. Golding has been loyal to Saban, he's had chances to leave and will have zero issues getting a new gig if he's let go. Also. folks will find out that "Golding's" defense looks a little different from "Saban's" defense if/when he goes elsewhere... I think a change needs to be made at this point, but the bottom line is, unless Saban agrees to more flexibility in his schemes (like he evolved with his offensive philosophy several years back), then it really isn't going to matter who is hired... its going to be a lot of the same issues popping up on gameday.

Respectfully, I think you may not be following the glaring trend in the OP graphic.

We've gotten WORSE, the more we've deviated from the "Saban D".

 

[Brandon Van de Graaff]

Respectfully, I think you may not be following the glaring trend in the OP graphic.

We've gotten WORSE, the more we've deviated from the "Saban D".

If I learned anything in statistics its that correlation does not equal causation. There is an issue though and IMO a change needs to be made which I've said a few times. I don't believe it is a singular issue. I do believe that if Saban thought the issue(s) could be fixed simply by a plug-n-play changing of the coordinators, then he'd have done it after last season.