šŸ“” Cam Robinson and Hootie Jones arrested

Haha, but really, this isn't about politics. It's about supporting our players, whose effort and physical sacrifices we can only dream about and who have given us so much joy as fans. To turn on a dime and attack them BEFORE FIRST examining and critiquing the rules they break, is pure pathological. It's like biting the hand that feeds you.
 
These are just some of numerous non-judgmental, positive, and constructive responses that were available to us as fans. But no, the players are stupid because they wasted an opportunity to give you your source of self-worth as a devout fan of a particular college athletic team! If you were a player, a key contributor to the team, who had helped your school win conference and national titles, who came from poverty and was used to a lifestyle of turning nickles into dimes for survival, would you want to play for a fan base that immediately jumps on you if you get into legal trouble? Or would you want to put your blood, sweat, and tears into a football program whose fans always respond with gratitude and support when you stumble and who advocate for common sense changes to the system (be it NCAA or government)?

That's a good take...

What I'd like to point out though, but I'm sure you know this, it's the fans that make Alabama special, not the players.

I always laugh when Saban throws out a little complaint about the fan base or points out how some don't do it right. But don't get it twisted... If it wasn't for a rabid fan base that genuinely cares too much about every aspect of the program (and the other great programs), he wouldn't be making umteen million to coach a kid's game.

The same fans that are crazy enough to pay $500+ for tickets, come out in tens of thousands to a spring scrimmage, show up hours early every saturday to make the "walk of champions" special, and post on an internet forum on Alabama football every day are the same ones that are going to complain about stuff like this. If they weren't crazy/obsessed about Alabama football, why would they be doing the other things previously noted? The Alabama coaches/players need to accept the fact that this obsession isn't a light switch... It's always on at Alabama. If you want an indifferent and/or "always positive" fan base, why come to Alabama? (Not even sure that exists anyway)

Bottom line - There are great players everywhere, only one Alabama... It's the fans that make it special. Lots of other great fan bases, but not like this... RTR
 
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Good lord, the Stockholm Syndrome and historical illiteracy among some people is more than I can take!

Like Che Boludo said, you can begin with the treasonous acts by the Revolutionaries to secede from the British Empire. Brave abolitionists broke the law frequently to push the public to see slavery as the evil that it was. The next occupant of the $20 bill, Harriet Tubman, readily comes to mind. The women's suffrage movement included legal obstructionists too. The same with the Civil Rights movement. MLK's advocacy of civil disobedience in the tradition of Ghandi also comes to mind.

The more you investigate the history of social change, the more you find that the legal system has usually followed, not led, public sentiment. The sacrifices of brave dissidents is ALMOST ALWAYS REQUIRED to motivate the authority-fearing, authority-trusting public to get off their lazy asses and pressure lawmakers to improve the laws. Without the personal sacrifices made by lawbreakers, positive change is seldom granted by government.

My original intent wasn’t to teach a history lesson or to make a libertarian case for ending drug prohibition. My main point was to bring to your attention your own reflexive, unconscious, Pavlovian reactions to troubled players. Look at how authoritarian you guys are, so quick to side with the punishers over the punished, despite the fact that the punished have given so much to your program! Instead of quickly responding with accusations of players being dumb, ungrateful, lazy, thugs, etc., you could have just as easily reserved your condemnations and instead offered support for the guys who win championships that you claim as your own as you sit back in your recliner drinking beer. What about a response like, "Man, I wonder what NCAA rules or government laws could be changed to help gifted players avoid trouble in the future so that their lives and careers aren't needlessly harmed, not to mention our team’s season!

Look, I have no idea what Cam did or didn’t do. But at the time of your judgmental comments, you didn’t know either. Certainly, the potential charge of theft is a problem, but is it worth a felony? Is it worth being suspended for a season or even kicked off the team? Is it a felony only because the stolen property was a firearm? If so, how is that compatible with the typical Conservative claim that society should encourage gun possession, not fear it? On the other hand, is it only a felony because he was also in possession of drugs? Is our phobia of ā€œillegalā€ drugs and our casual acceptance of the widespread consumption of legal drugs merited, or is it just the result of social/government conditioning? Was he consuming the drugs himself, say for pain management, which is common in the NFL? Besides gun theft (assuming that charge is confirmed), were there victims to his other offenses? If not, then why are victimless crimes illegal in the first place? For nonviolent crimes, can we at least consider principles of Restorative Justice rather than the punitive principles of Retributive Justice? And like I mentioned before, if we were more fairly compensating players for the product of their labor, they would be much less likely to engage in lucrative illegal activities in the first place, activities which are lucrative ONLY because of drug prohibition itself!

These are just some of numerous non-judgmental, positive, and constructive responses that were available to us as fans. But no, the players are stupid because they wasted an opportunity to give you your source of self-worth as a devout fan of a particular college athletic team! If you were a player, a key contributor to the team, who had helped your school win conference and national titles, who came from poverty and was used to a lifestyle of turning nickles into dimes for survival, would you want to play for a fan base that immediately jumps on you if you get into legal trouble? Or would you want to put your blood, sweat, and tears into a football program whose fans always respond with gratitude and support when you stumble and who advocate for common sense changes to the system (be it NCAA or government)?

If this happened to Average Joe, nobody would think twice about the potential punishment. Some are up in arms about the potential punishment only because these are two Alabama football players, one with an incredible opportunity that he may have thrown away. Is our hope for the future applied to everyone the same?

I have faith in Saban's effort to treat all players fairly. The key will be if the charges can be reduced (youthful offender, misdemeanor instead of felony). Saban has no control over this. Second comes the University's policy of punishment for the level of charges. Does it call for kicking the kid out of school? The third level is with Saban. What punishment is appropriate? I'm sure that there will be some early morning workouts and extra running. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if Saban suspends both players for several games.
 
That's a good take...

What I'd like to point out though, but I'm sure you know this, it's the fans that make Alabama special, not the players.

I always laugh when Saban throws out a little complaint about the fan base or points out how some don't do it right. But don't get it twisted... If it wasn't for a rabid fan base that genuinely cares too much about every aspect of the program (and the other great programs), he wouldn't be making umteen million to coach a kid's game.

The same fans that are crazy enough to pay $500+ for tickets, come out in tens of thousands to a spring scrimmage, show up hours early every saturday to make the "walk of champions" special, and post on an internet forum on Alabama football every day are the same ones that are going to complain about stuff like this. If they weren't crazy/obsessed about Alabama football, why would they be doing the other things previously noted? The Alabama coaches/players need to accept the fact that this obsession isn't a light switch... It's always on at Alabama. If you want an indifferent and/or "always positive" fan base, why come to Alabama? (Not even sure that exists anyway)

Bottom line - There are great players everywhere, only one Alabama... It's the fans that make it special. Lots of other great fan bases, but not like this... RTR
No one denies fan support is a huge factor. No one denies coaching is a factor. No one denies capital investment, facilities, and academic support are a big factors too, especially today. But even the best coaches have always said that it ultimately comes down to players making plays, especially in circumstances which are unplanned and unscripted by coaches, and when fans may come and go with the wind, like after the Ole Miss loss last season.

Was it the exceptionalism of Alabama fans that won the early national championships of the 20s, 30s, 40s, etc., when there were more prominent programs around with larger fan bases? I've read that between Bryant's 60s and 70s titles there was huge support among fans to fire him ... fire the greatest coach ever ... "awesome fans" wanted this. Or was it first and foremost Alabama players on the field beating the players opposite of them and sometimes good coaching, sometimes bad coaching behind them, and sometimes supportive fans and sometimes fair-weather fans behind them? Was it the fans who carried the rock so many times last season, or was that Derrick Henry's body doing that, knowing that there was no suitable, every-down running back to replace him? Was that Barret Jones playing a national title game with a messed up knee (or ankle, I forget?), or the fans? Was that Greg McElroy playing against Texas with a cracked rib or the fans? Examples of this kind are too numerous to list. Yes, fan support matters a lot, but not as much as the effort, sacrifices, and bravery of the players. Get your priorities strait.
 
No one denies fan support is a huge factor. No one denies coaching is a factor. No one denies capital investment, facilities, and academic support are a big factors too, especially today. But even the best coaches have always said that it ultimately comes down to players making plays, especially in circumstances which are unplanned and unscripted by coaches, and when fans may come and go with the wind, like after the Ole Miss loss last season.

Was it the exceptionalism of Alabama fans that won the early national championships of the 20s, 30s, 40s, etc., when there were more prominent programs around with larger fan bases? I've read that between Bryant's 60s and 70s titles there was huge support among fans to fire him ... fire the greatest coach ever ... "awesome fans" wanted this. Or was it first and foremost Alabama players on the field beating the players opposite of them and sometimes good coaching, sometimes bad coaching behind them, and sometimes supportive fans and sometimes fair-weather fans behind them? Was it the fans who carried the rock so many times last season, or was that Derrick Henry's body doing that, knowing that there was no suitable, every-down running back to replace him? Was that Barret Jones playing a national title game with a messed up knee (or ankle, I forget?), or the fans? Was that Greg McElroy playing against Texas with a cracked rib or the fans? Examples of this kind are too numerous to list. Yes, fan support matters a lot, but not as much as the effort, sacrifices, and bravery of the players. Get your priorities strait.

Whether it was Derrick Henry, Mark Ingram, Trent Richardson, TJ Yeldon, or Eddie Lacy... They all wore the same jersey. While they seem irreplacable... They keep getting replaced. McElroy, McCarron, and now Coker... Jake Coker for goodness sakes.

When it comes to winning championships, it all has to come together. Talent, coaching, administration, support.

Bottom line - The talent doesn't come to Alabama if not for the fans. The financial and non financial support (facilities, # of assistant coaches, tutors, 70,000 spring game attendance, walk of champions,etc) is why they commit. Almost all that is due to the support from the fan base.

The obsession that brings so many great things will bring a few negatives as well. That's just the way it is, and it's a small price to pay for all of the great things associated with the Alabama fan base.
 
Whether it was Derrick Henry, Mark Ingram, Trent Richardson, TJ Yeldon, or Eddie Lacy... They all wore the same jersey. While they seem irreplacable... They keep getting replaced. McElroy, McCarron, and now Coker... Jake Coker for goodness sakes.

When it comes to winning championships, it all has to come together. Talent, coaching, administration, support.

Bottom line - The talent doesn't come to Alabama if not for the fans. The financial and non financial support (facilities, # of assistant coaches, tutors, 70,000 spring game attendance, walk of champions,etc) is why they commit. Almost all that is due to the support from the fan base.

The obsession that brings so many great things will bring a few negatives as well. That's just the way it is, and it's a small price to pay for all of the great things associated with the Alabama fan base.
Now you're resorting to Straw Man arguments. I never said that Alabama fans and all other aspects of the University don't attract great players. That's a different argument altogether.

Rather, I'm saying that there are aspects to winning (and winning consistently) that can only come from the resilience, endurance, creativity, and tenacity of the players themselves. The fans aren't putting in the work in the weight room, in the tutoring sessions, on the practice field, in the painful rehab, community service, media engagements, and executing on game day often having to improvise when necessary and play through pain.

You can't tell me fan support helped a much-maligned Griffith have a marvelous game against Clemson. You can't tell me fan support helped a much-maligned Coaker have a flawless postseason. You can't tell me fan support helped a much-maligned OJ Howard have a break out game against Clemson, when frankly he was our only offensive weapon at times.

The players didn't come to Alabama to see fans empty the stadium during the Ole Miss game and miss a near comeback. In fact, from all reports, it was that very loss of confidence by fans and media that helped unify the players to go on its winning streak to finish out the season.

Being able to replace blue chips with more blue chips is one thing, and yes, fan support and patronage is a huge factor with attracting these blue chips. But while they are here, fans have far less to do with their performance and grit. The least we fans could do, as I am arguing in this thread, is support them when they stumble and to fight to make the system fairer for them.
 
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Now you're resorting to Straw Man arguments. I never said that Alabama fans and all other aspects of the University don't attract great players. That's a different argument altogether.

Rather, I'm saying that there are aspects to winning (and winning consistently) that can only come from the resilience, endurance, creativity, and tenacity of the players themselves. The fans aren't putting in the work in the weight room, in the tutoring sessions, on the practice field, in the painful rehab, community service, media engagements, and executing on game day often having to improvise when necessary and play through pain.

You can't tell me fan support helped a much-maligned Griffith have a marvelous game against Clemson. You can't tell me fan support helped a much-maligned Coaker have a flawless postseason. You can't tell me fan support helped a much-maligned OJ Howard have a break out game against Clemson, when frankly he was our only offensive weapon at times.

The players didn't come to Alabama to see fans empty the stadium during the Ole Miss game and miss a near comeback. In fact, from all reports, it was that very loss of confidence by fans and media that helped unify the players to go on its winning streak to finish out the season.

Being able to replace blue chips with more blue chips is one thing, and yes, fan support and patronage is a huge factor with attracting these blue chips. But while they are here, fans have far less to do with their performance and grit. The least we fans could do, as I am arguing in this thread, is support them when they stumble and to fight to make the system fairer for them.

No I'm not setting up a "Straw Man" argument. Because I'm making a point that disagrees with yours, that's called a debate or good conversation...

Aside from our basic disagreement on which group is most important - I don't know any fan base in the country that is going to be supportive about their players being arrested for smoking weed and carrying guns. I think you're in for a long and hopeless fight if those are you're expectations. However, Alabama fans make it up in many other ways, and in more ways than any other school in the country... JMO
 
No one denies fan support is a huge factor. No one denies coaching is a factor. No one denies capital investment, facilities, and academic support are a big factors too, especially today. But even the best coaches have always said that it ultimately comes down to players making plays, especially in circumstances which are unplanned and unscripted by coaches, and when fans may come and go with the wind, like after the Ole Miss loss last season.

Was it the exceptionalism of Alabama fans that won the early national championships of the 20s, 30s, 40s, etc., when there were more prominent programs around with larger fan bases? I've read that between Bryant's 60s and 70s titles there was huge support among fans to fire him ... fire the greatest coach ever ... "awesome fans" wanted this. Or was it first and foremost Alabama players on the field beating the players opposite of them and sometimes good coaching, sometimes bad coaching behind them, and sometimes supportive fans and sometimes fair-weather fans behind them? Was it the fans who carried the rock so many times last season, or was that Derrick Henry's body doing that, knowing that there was no suitable, every-down running back to replace him? Was that Barret Jones playing a national title game with a messed up knee (or ankle, I forget?), or the fans? Was that Greg McElroy playing against Texas with a cracked rib or the fans? Examples of this kind are too numerous to list. Yes, fan support matters a lot, but not as much as the effort, sacrifices, and bravery of the players. Get your priorities strait.

Was it the funding of the boosters that pay for the medical treatment and facilities that get these guys in shape to carry the rock 40 times or muscle past some pain? Is it the players creating the platform to go pro and be multi-millionaires by 20-21 years old? Who built the brand, what built the institution of higher learning? Make no mistake that without the funding of boosters (most likely alumni) there would be no program. Things have changed, even since the 80's. Take away all of those facilities and perks, those same players are gone with no regard whatsoever of Alabama. When they do come and play, they are long gone while the fans and boosters are still here pouring money into the program. You claim bravery and sacrifice, but ultimately they're doing it for the money and theirselves. I mean shit, give me the opportunity to make millions after three years of service and I'd do the same thing, so don't hold them in such a high regard where they are above everything and everyone else. Even past players have admitted when others are all "Team Me". Of course, you get guys like Mark Ingram, Barrett Jones, Julio Jones that are pillars of service for our program, but for them, you have ten times more players that truly don't care and used Alabama just like Alabama uses them.
 
No I'm not setting up a "Straw Man" argument.

Yes you are. Learn more about Straw Man Fallacies here. And reread my posts to improve your comprehension of my nuanced points. You pivoted to the issue of who/what deserves credit for attracting talented players to Bama when my original claim was concerned with who deserves primary credit for winning games. The part of my previous post I put in bold I think best sums up my position.

I don't know any fan base in the country that is going to be supportive about their players being arrested for smoking weed and carrying guns. However, Alabama fans make it up in many other ways, and in more ways than any other school in the country... JMO

I'm not really concerned with other fan bases, but my support for one team's players in a way does make me supportive of players' rights in general. My point here was to show some posters how unnecessary and pathological their reflexive attacks on players are. It's odd to see such a contrast between the response of fans and the response of teammates. That alone should give critics reason to check themselves, at least until the details are confirmed. Now if it comes out that Cam is a notorious drug dealer who engages in human trafficking and arms dealing, well then, you all have my blessing to criticize Cam all you want. ;)

The thing to remember is that a free society puts morality before legality. This requires us to question the rules BEFORE blaming the rule-breaker. And besides, how can you support a team without supporting the team's players?

I think you're in for a long and hopeless fight if those are you're expectations.

Probably so. But just imagine if Bama fans, in the support of their players, mobilized and used their program's visibility and stature to make the NCAA fairer towards players' rights. That would be cool.
 
Was it the funding of the boosters that pay for the medical treatment and facilities that get these guys in shape to carry the rock 40 times or muscle past some pain? Is it the players creating the platform to go pro and be multi-millionaires by 20-21 years old? Who built the brand, what built the institution of higher learning? Make no mistake that without the funding of boosters (most likely alumni) there would be no program. Things have changed, even since the 80's. Take away all of those facilities and perks, those same players are gone with no regard whatsoever of Alabama. When they do come and play, they are long gone while the fans and boosters are still here pouring money into the program. You claim bravery and sacrifice, but ultimately they're doing it for the money and theirselves. I mean ****, give me the opportunity to make millions after three years of service and I'd do the same thing, so don't hold them in such a high regard where they are above everything and everyone else. Even past players have admitted when others are all "Team Me". Of course, you get guys like Mark Ingram, Barrett Jones, Julio Jones that are pillars of service for our program, but for them, you have ten times more players that truly don't care and used Alabama just like Alabama uses them.
You're not negating any of my claims. I encourage you to read my several posts more carefully.
 
Yes you are. Learn more about Straw Man Fallacies here. And reread my posts to improve your comprehension of my nuanced points. You pivoted to the issue of who/what deserves credit for attracting talented players to Bama when my original claim was concerned with who deserves primary credit for winning games. The part of my previous post I put in bold I think best sums up my position.



I'm not really concerned with other fan bases, but my support for one team's players in a way does make me supportive of players' rights in general. My point here was to show some posters how unnecessary and pathological their reflexive attacks on players are. It's odd to see such a contrast between the response of fans and the response of teammates. That alone should give critics reason to check themselves, at least until the details are confirmed. Now if it comes out that Cam is a notorious drug dealer who engages in human trafficking and arms dealing, well then, you all have my blessing to criticize Cam all you want. ;)

The thing to remember is that a free society puts morality before legality. This requires us to question the rules BEFORE blaming the rule-breaker. And besides, how can you support a team without supporting the team's players?



Probably so. But just imagine if Bama fans, in the support of their players, mobilized and used their program's visibility and stature to make the NCAA fairer towards players' rights. That would be cool.

LOL. Man... Every disagreement isn't a straw man. I know that's how the political debates go down but when we are conversating about what makes Alabama football most successful, and you say players, and I say the fans, pointing out that that the players come here because of the fans is a pretty pertinent point. And extremely accurate.

And as far as "just imagine if Bama fans mobilized and used their programs visibility and stature to make the NCAA fairer towards players' rights"... No thanks. I'll stay right here in reality where I can see that Alabama has the best and most supportive fan base in the entire college football landscape. This fan base comes with a few bad eggs and negative examples every year, but they attract the best players, coaches, and finance the best support system money can buy so that their student athletes can be successfull during and after their careers. That's plenty good enough for me
 
You're not negating any of my claims. I encourage you to read my several posts more carefully.

You're claiming it's all about the players and their sacrifice and ultimately we have very little to do with the Alabama football program. The player's are the ones that make the program, not the fan support, boosters, facilities etc. Also think I saw something about if we lose the fanbase is nowhere to be found and minimizes. Did I miss something?
 
Can't we just talk about how Bama can't defend the spread offense?

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Can't we just talk about how Bama can't defend the spread offense?

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Haha nice. What were Clemson's record breaking offensive stats again? We won thanks to special teams (plus Griffith having an unusually good day) and coverage breakdowns on OJ. That onside kick was Saban throwing in the towel! He even said as much.

Also, to my point from way back in the day, how did Saban eventually adjust to the spread???? By doing exactly what I and other pundits said would have to be done: utilizing smaller and quicker defensive personnel. Sooooooo :neener_neener:!
 
LOL. Man... Every disagreement isn't a straw man. I know that's how the political debates go down but when we are conversating about what makes Alabama football most successful, and you say players, and I say the fans, pointing out that that the players come here because of the fans is a pretty pertinent point. And extremely accurate.

And as far as "just imagine if Bama fans mobilized and used their programs visibility and stature to make the NCAA fairer towards players' rights"... No thanks. I'll stay right here in reality where I can see that Alabama has the best and most supportive fan base in the entire college football landscape. This fan base comes with a few bad eggs and negative examples every year, but they attract the best players, coaches, and finance the best support system money can buy so that their student athletes can be successfull during and after their careers. That's plenty good enough for me

I can see your point, but to say us fans are more important than the players is just wrong.

If we don't have a good record the fans don't show up, but the players are still in the weight room and practice and on the field every Saturday playing and giving their all in hopes of winning and yes in hopes of making it pro to earn millions, but most fans won't show up and support the team if the team isn't doing well plain and simple. Like Musso said against Ole Miss the stadium was half empty while the team was trying to come back. Yes the fans are important to a program, but more important than the players is wrong
 
The biggest problem I see in defending one of the Bama players is that Cam's handgun was stolen. Seems to me guns, drugs, guns and drugs, and guns and drugs in a public park all pale in comparison to the problems one faces when trying to defend how that person came to be in possession of a stolen weapon.
 
I can see your point, but to say us fans are more important than the players is just wrong.

If we don't have a good record the fans don't show up, but the players are still in the weight room and practice and on the field every Saturday playing and giving their all in hopes of winning and yes in hopes of making it pro to earn millions, but most fans won't show up and support the team if the team isn't doing well plain and simple. Like Musso said against Ole Miss the stadium was half empty while the team was trying to come back. Yes the fans are important to a program, but more important than the players is wrong

You make very valid points... And here's what you've got to understand.

This is a ridiculous fan base. Seriously. But the ridiculous expectations are what has almost forced Alabama to be dominant. Those same fans that walked out of the Ole Miss game are the same fans that weren't happy until Saban came to Alabama... And remember, Saban chose Alabama for a reason... It wasn't the roster.

Bama fans are blinded by passion and that passion leads to an amazing amount of support. You could point out little negative things all day about fans leaving early, fans being mad about their players being arrested, fans clowning the kicker for sucking ass, etc., but those expectations are what makes Alabama so awesome.
 

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