🏈 Bama Spring Quarterback Battle

[T&B]

 

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JJ at practice a few days ago

 

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[Killer Instinct]

There have been 3 constants during the Saban era at Bama:

1) Ham-handed handling of the QB position.
2) Ditto the FG kicking duties.
3) Championships

Obviously #3 is the most important and I know we're being nit-picking here but let's examine the other 2 since it's spring and not much else to bitch about. Saban can't develop an All-American QB consistently. We churn out AA's at other positions like Hershey churns out chocolate bars, but QB? AJ was the exception. Oh we recruit the best there too. We keep bringing in 4 and 5 star Elite Eleven guys and we keep doing absolutely nothing to develop them. Where does the problem lie? It almost has to be with the man himself, CNS. We've gone through numerous OC's during his tenure and each one has been successful elsewhere at spotting and developing QB talent. But when they get to Bama, something happens and suddenly they couldn't develop Joe Namath if they had him. We're not asking the guy to carry the team, save for maybe a scant handful of times during the year. And we've had several guys be very successful at just moving the team consistently so it hasn't been a huge issue. But we've not had a guy other than AJ that we could look to and say "the running game's not working, they've got our defense on their heels and we can't stop them, you've got to step up and put the team on your shoulders and carry them tonight. You've got to step up and be THE MAN!" And I think the only reason AJ was capable of doing it was because of the special relationship he and Nick had. Nick trusted him to do it. AJ certainly had to earn that trust and earn it the hard way, but he did and you saw the results. We were damn near unstoppable. We won 2 NC's and were one freak play away from playing for a 3rd.

It's frustrating for us fans to watch us bring in guys like Philip Sims, BB8, David Cornwell, etc, etc. and we never see them improve their game from high school while teams like Louisville and North Dakota State and Bowling Green take unknown, unheralded guys and turn them into NFL first rounders. It's never going to change, but I sure wish it would. Saban seems to keep the QB's and the place-kickers on a leash so short that they are afraid to take a leak without it being called in the huddle because if you make a mistake, you're out! You aren't the guy. He demands mistake free, turnover free football in practice and in scrimmages, because if you try to make a play and throw the ball into a tight window where it might be intercepted, you're a liability. Last spring and summer, the rumor was BB8 was going to knock our socks off and Saban had to fight Lane to keep him off the field and red-shirted. Now this spring, he can't fall off a log and hit the ground. Why the sudden change? I doubt BB8 has regressed that much. But he's still trying to do things Saban doesn't want him to do regarding decisions, so he's a liability. There's the bench, young man. Often young QB's learn how to play at the next level by making some mistakes. With CNS, that's not allowed. The poster who brought up Saban's refusal to play backups until way too late in the game brings up a point I have preached every season in the Saban era. He has a blind spot there and he is too NFL-like with his QB's and playing time and it costs us year after year in the spring and summer where we have to decide who gets the meaningful reps. It is what it is, and the results speak for themselves, but except for the occasional exception like an AJ or like no placekicker we've had as of yet under CNS, he will keep stifling QB's and kickers to the point that they are stunted game managers unable to shoulder the team if the need arises.

 

[T&B]

Well somebody is going to enjoy throwing to this guy:

 

[OldPlayer]

There have been 3 constants during the Saban era at Bama:

1) Ham-handed handling of the QB position.
2) Ditto the FG kicking duties.
3) Championships

Obviously #3 is the most important and I know we're being nit-picking here but let's examine the other 2 since it's spring and not much else to bitch about. Saban can't develop an All-American QB consistently. We churn out AA's at other positions like Hershey churns out chocolate bars, but QB? AJ was the exception. Oh we recruit the best there too. We keep bringing in 4 and 5 star Elite Eleven guys and we keep doing absolutely nothing to develop them. Where does the problem lie? It almost has to be with the man himself, CNS. We've gone through numerous OC's during his tenure and each one has been successful elsewhere at spotting and developing QB talent. But when they get to Bama, something happens and suddenly they couldn't develop Joe Namath if they had him. We're not asking the guy to carry the team, save for maybe a scant handful of times during the year. And we've had several guys be very successful at just moving the team consistently so it hasn't been a huge issue. But we've not had a guy other than AJ that we could look to and say "the running game's not working, they've got our defense on their heels and we can't stop them, you've got to step up and put the team on your shoulders and carry them tonight. You've got to step up and be THE MAN!" And I think the only reason AJ was capable of doing it was because of the special relationship he and Nick had. Nick trusted him to do it. AJ certainly had to earn that trust and earn it the hard way, but he did and you saw the results. We were damn near unstoppable. We won 2 NC's and were one freak play away from playing for a 3rd.

It's frustrating for us fans to watch us bring in guys like Philip Sims, BB8, David Cornwell, etc, etc. and we never see them improve their game from high school while teams like Louisville and North Dakota State and Bowling Green take unknown, unheralded guys and turn them into NFL first rounders. It's never going to change, but I sure wish it would. Saban seems to keep the QB's and the place-kickers on a leash so short that they are afraid to take a leak without it being called in the huddle because if you make a mistake, you're out! You aren't the guy. He demands mistake free, turnover free football in practice and in scrimmages, because if you try to make a play and throw the ball into a tight window where it might be intercepted, you're a liability. Last spring and summer, the rumor was BB8 was going to knock our socks off and Saban had to fight Lane to keep him off the field and red-shirted. Now this spring, he can't fall off a log and hit the ground. Why the sudden change? I doubt BB8 has regressed that much. But he's still trying to do things Saban doesn't want him to do regarding decisions, so he's a liability. There's the bench, young man. Often young QB's learn how to play at the next level by making some mistakes. With CNS, that's not allowed. The poster who brought up Saban's refusal to play backups until way too late in the game brings up a point I have preached every season in the Saban era. He has a blind spot there and he is too NFL-like with his QB's and playing time and it costs us year after year in the spring and summer where we have to decide who gets the meaningful reps. It is what it is, and the results speak for themselves, but except for the occasional exception like an AJ or like no placekicker we've had as of yet under CNS, he will keep stifling QB's and kickers to the point that they are stunted game managers unable to shoulder the team if the need arises.

Somewhere in the process is the player's commitment/dedication/willingness/ability to do what needs to be done. What do you know about Phillip Simms', Cornwell's or BB8's preparation? For Saban, it's more than the Xs and Os. The player that takes command and earns the respect of the team (as well as knowing assignments and has good decision making) is the one that starts.

I disagree with the classification of CNS's "ham handling." Just because he takes his time or doesn't follow the path that fans desire doesn't mean he's "ham handling" the process. BB8's "success" last year was claimed by fans, not the coaching staff.

 

[TerryP]

1) Ham-handed handling of the QB position.

It's frustrating for us fans to watch us bring in guys like Philip Sims, BB8, David Cornwell, etc, etc. and we never see them improve their game from high school while teams like Louisville and North Dakota State and Bowling Green take unknown, unheralded guys and turn them into NFL first rounders. .

You mention these three teams and I'm going to use one as an example.

You're lauding Wentz as being developed—and we'll leave competition level aside for a second—versus what's happened with our QB's.

So, for shits and giggles ... which one of the following stats belong with Wentz?

228 of 358, 3111 total yards, 25:10 TD to INT ratio.
263 of 393, 3110 total yards, 21:8 TD to INT ratio.

The later is from a QB the Bama staff didn't develop.
-----

While the spring is the time for hyperbole, the notion we aren't seeing guys improve from high school to their playing days in Tuscaloosa?!?! We're less than a year removed from seeing Jake improve dramatically from Wisconsin through Clemson. Blake didn't improve? Greg didn't develop?

Believe that if you will but if you're going to say this staff can't develop the position I have to offer 100+ FBS teams that have found themselves in the same, or worse, situations than the Tide has been the last decade.

Now, if you want to talk about QB's not being developed in high school? NOW, we're on the same page.

 

[Killer Instinct]

Let's not confuse Kiffin doing a masterful job of tailoring the offense to maximize the limited abilities of our last two QBs with developing them. He got the most he could out of them but neither was ever a threat to be a first rounder. They weren't supposed to be either. I'm talking more about the long list of top 5 quarterbacks we keep recruiting that don't develop into top 5 college QBs.

 

[TerryP]

Let's not confuse Kiffin doing a masterful job of tailoring the offense to maximize the limited abilities of our last two QBs with developing them. He got the most he could out of them but neither was ever a threat to be a first rounder. They weren't supposed to be either. I'm talking more about the long list of top 5 quarterbacks we keep recruiting that don't develop into top 5 college QBs.

OK, let's go with that for a second.

Blake ranked among the top QB's in the nation in performance and efficiency. He wasn't a top five quarterback when he was coming out of high school, and led the Bama offense to some record breaking numbers. The decisions he made in the pocket weren't natural ability, they were taught—a word easily exchanged with developed.

The last three quarters of 2015 had Coker as one of the most accurate passers in the nation. Even with the poor start, his numbers matched what your earlier example in Wentz was able to post.

Yet, it seems/reads to me you're using "first round draft pick" to mean "develop a college quarterback." They couldn't be further apart from my perspective.

This notion of "top 5 quarterbacks" recruited as a judgement on QB development confuses me ... almost to the point of bewilderment. For 2016, if we look at pro style QB's that would be true seniors this fall, who has accomplished their top 5 ranking? Max Browne? Hackenburg? Shane Morris? Those three were ahead of Cooper in their class.

Do you see where I'm continuing to go here? The QB development is being scrutinized, but by what guidelines/standards? Across college football, they're doing as well, or better, than the vast majority of college football. (Take a moment and look at the classes Richt and Spurrier brought in, where their guys were ranked, and how they ended up.) Personally, I see unrealistic expectations.

It's my opinion we should be very thankful we don't have a system in place that requires an All-American at QB—yet we've had one.

 

[JoshB]

Let's not confuse Kiffin doing a masterful job of tailoring the offense to maximize the limited abilities of our last two QBs with developing them. He got the most he could out of them but neither was ever a threat to be a first rounder. They weren't supposed to be either. I'm talking more about the long list of top 5 quarterbacks we keep recruiting that don't develop into top 5 college QBs.

First off where are all these incredible amounts of "top 5" QBs that we have supposedly been getting because there have only been a few since Saban has gotten here. Star Jackson, Phillip Sims, Cornwell, and Barnett. Are you really going to blame Saban or the coaching staff on Jackson or Sims? Or claim that two players that are both still VERY young somehow haven't been developed? But for shits and grins lets take a look at all these "top 5 QBs"...

- 2007: Nick Fanuzzi (18th ranked "dual threat QB")
A Shula recruit that transferred out after his freshman season. Went to Rice and was a part time starter.

- 2008: Star Jackson (5th ranked "pro-style QB") and Brad Smelly (30th ranked "pro-style QB")
One of the more highly recruited players of the early Saban era, probably most everyone thought Star was going to end up being the next "guy" at Bama. Left after AJ McCarron passed him on the depth chart in 2009 and joined Georgie State. Never started a game there and left after one year, never to play college ball again.

- 2009: AJ McCarron (7th ranked "pro-style QB")
Ended up becoming a three starter, won two national championships, an SEC Championship, and breaking every single career passing record at Alabama. Now a QB in the NFL, started 6 games last year.

- 2010: Phillip Sims (2nd ranked "pro-style QB") and Blake Sims (33rd ranked "athlete")
P. Sims lost to McCarron as a freshman and sat behind him for a year before leaving Bama for Virginia. Was a starter for a year and then kicked off the team. Become a part time starter for a DII school. Signed by the Cardinals, was a backup for a cpl games and then released. Recently signed with Seahawks for training camp. B. Sims bounced around from QB to RB for a couple of years before settling in as McCarron's backup his last year. Beat out Coker as a senior and ended up breaking all of McCarron's single season passing records despite not even being recruited to Bama to play QB.

- 2011: Phillip Ely (20th ranked "pro-style QB")
Transferred to Toledo after two seasons and became Toledo's starting QB for two years, though he blew out his knee in 2014. Threw for nearly 3,000 yards and over 20 TDs in Toledo's air raid offense in 2015.

- 2012: Alec Morris (30th ranked "pro-style QB")
Transferred to North Texas after never being able to beat out younger players.

- 2013: Cooper Bateman (11th ranked "pro-style QB") and Parker McLeod (unranked)
Currently competing for starting job. Lost to Coker last year.

- 2014: David Cornwell (3rd ranked "pro-style QB")
Currently competing for starting job.

- 2015: Blake Barnett (2nd ranked "dual threat QB")
Currently competing for starting job.

- 2016: Jalen Hurts (9th ranked "dual threat QB")
Currently competing for starting job.

So of the last nine years if you wanted to complain, you could complain at the lack of "elite" recruits that were even brought in (mainly in the early years though it has obviously picked up considerably since 2013). Pretty much every single one of those guys ended up "overachieving" or leaving and then proceeded to do nothing when they left (except for Ely who became a star at a small school and likely will never be in the NFL).

 

[TerryP]

Just a curious question here ...

Looking around the SEC, in Saban's tenure, who would you point to as a coach who has done a better job at developing the QB position than the staff at Bama? (Those who are active now, or have been released, or moved on ...)

 

[BAMAneck]

With Mullen having tebow and dak is the only one I can think of . Tebow was expected to be great but dak was a 3 star pro style per 247, who turn out a quasi heisman .

 

[Killer Instinct]

Before you go stringing me up, I did preface this by saying the results speak for themselves and this is merely a spring time discussion for lack of a better one.

OK, I remembered the QB recruits a little too optimistically. Most of them have been top 10 recruits, not top 5. Point taken. And some have been not quite that. To answer your last question, before his last couple of years, I'd say Richt was probably the most consistent coach at developing a QB.

Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful for Sims and Coker, and I'm proud of what those young men were able to accomplish. But I never felt at ease with either of them under center. Blake would have a period during almost every game where he went cold and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. With Coker, we didn't know if it would be good Jake or bad Jake as some of his decisions would scare the bejesus out of you. I'd love to know how many INT's were dropped by opposing players as it seemed that Jake would hit one of the wrong color jerseys in the hands every game.

AJ was the best QB we've had on campus since maybe Brodie Croyle or before that, Richard Todd. He could take over the game if needed.

McElroy was the smartest QB we've had on campus since Mike Shula and it showed. He wasn't the most athletic guy, but he made great decisions. But even though he was a great strategist, he had his limitations and was not going to win many games with his arm.

Yeah, I'm spoiled. I want more AJ's at QB than Blake's. And we recruit the AJ types. But they never seem to win the job. Is that because we don't let them? Early on, AJ was certainly a gunslinger with the gunslinger mentality. Saban tried to coach it out of him, and he managed to tone him down, but he never did take the gunslinger out of AJ. And AJ finally won Saban over, not vice-versa. Granted, we don't want a guy turning it over under center, but we don't want to completely tie his hands either. It's a tough balancing act to be sure, but I think Saban is leaning a little too conservative at this position.

My other gripe is the way we handle them. We MIGHT not be having to totally audition the QB position every spring if we'd let guys play a little during the season. Let them take meaningful snaps, not just to hand off to the RB in 50-0 blowouts. By that I mean, put them in a little earlier and let them run the offense. Maybe then we go into spring with some idea of who can play and who's behind. I do NOT like using the entire spring and fall camp as a testing ground where we haven't decided on a starter until a couple of games into the season. We are playing with fire every time we do that and last year, against Ole Miss, we got burned. We need to have a chosen starter at least 2 weeks before the first game that gets most of the reps.

 

[footballer]

Since Coach Saban has been here at Alabama, he likes to recruit as many good athletes as he can at every position. I believe Coach Saban looks for and signs high quality people, excellent, smart players, that he believes are going to do the right things on and off the field and in the classroom. He wants good competition at every position and that goes especially at the QB position. To sign and bring in top athletes, I believe he promises them all an equal chance to compete for the starting position all year long. That gives each QB the incentive to keep working hard to develop and learn the offense and improve their strengths and to eliminate bad habits that every high school QB has, some more than others. I am sure that when it gets down to the nitty gritty, Coach Saban wishes just as we fans do, one QB will step up and be head and shoulders above the others. As we all know as fans, sometimes there is not much difference in the abilities between first, second and some third string players. That's where the intangibles come into play. And this is where I trust Coach Saban and Coach Kiffen and all the rest of the staff the most, to play the best players at each position on the field that give us the best chance of winning. There is just NO argument against his way of doing things. HE IS A WINNER.

 

[TerryP]

Before you go stringing me up,

:doh2:

I'll get back to the rest of that later..

With Mullen having tebow and dak is the only one I can think of . Tebow was expected to be great but dak was a 3 star pro style per 247, who turn out a quasi heisman .

@Killer Instinct I'd have to look at Dak's projections out of high school. Hell, I can't recall if he was offered. We know Tebow's story and it's certainly not draft heavy in content.

On a somewhat related note ... if with look at UGA with Richt and Bobo, they had pretty decent success with QB's. They certainly weren't any better at evaluating than the majority of the staff's in the US. Consider ... Nick Marshall was a defensive back. But, didn't fit their offense.

 

[TerryP]

On the other hand with Richt and Bobo, I still believe a lot of what Mett brought to LSU was due to his time in Athens, combined with a great high school program.

 

[BAMAneck]

I didn't think about Georgia , they would definitely be ahead of Mullen and state .

 

[TerryP]

I didn't think about Georgia , they would definitely be ahead of Mullen and state .

Where is UGA when compared to Bama?

In 2015 both schools started transfer Quarterbacks. When it comes to experience, Lambert had more than Coker coming in to last fall. At the end of the season Coker put up better numbers—across the board—than Lambert.

2014 featured Sims and Mason. We all know these two guys took to opposite career paths. Blake, looking for a position for four years versus Mason playing the same position throughout his collegiate career. Mason ended the season with a better TD to INT ratio and better completion percentage but the other stats are skewed in Blake's favor (YPG, completions, attempts, etc.) Statistically, we could call it a wash ... until we start thinking about Blake was a running back for a large portion of his career.

2013 with McCarron and Murray ... their numbers are almost identical. In 2012 Murray had more yards on the season, AJ better numbers in all the other major categories. A TD to INT ratio for AJ and Murray being 30:3 vs 38:10 is one area that puts this in AJ's favor.

2011 puts that in Murray's favor with his TD to INT ratio although if we look at completion percentage, QB rating, etc. AJ makes that year pretty damn close.

______

That's covering five years. That shows that the two programs are virtually identical when it comes to the QB position. But, in the end, you'll see Bama has done a better job with its QB's than UGA.

No reason to bring up wins or championships. As @Killer Instinct mentioned, the results speak for themselves.

The bottom line, in my eyes, is IF we choose to say "Richt and company are some of the best developers at the position in our conference" we have to also say "Saban and company are as well."

The results speak for themselves; the numbers only support the claim.