| FTBL Saban/Bama/LSU


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http://cfn.scout.com/2/644832.html --- I agree completely.

There has been many arguments on the message boards between Bama and LSU fans since Saban was hired at Alabama. One of these arguments is about the talent level. LSU fans have been saying that they had more talent when Saban went there than he does at Alabama right now. What say you? Also, can you compare the overall state of the two programs, meaning Bama right now and LSU back when Saban arrived? – TT

A: Both fan bases are right in their own way. If you remember, Gerry DiNardo was a heck of a recruiter who put together some good teams at LSU that just couldn’t get the job done. The knock was that the talent was in place, but the coach wasn’t. While there was certainly talent when Saban arrived, LSU really started to rock once the recruiting went through the roof from very good to elite. It’s the same thing at Alabama. The expectations were jacked up way too high after a somewhat fluky 2005 season when the Tide got every good bounce and break you could possibly imagine. 2006 was supposed to be a bit of a rebuilding year, and it was, and now Saban should swoop in and benefit. He did a good job recruiting in a limited amount of time, and he’s certain to bring in some monster hauls after getting more time to work.

However, and I always emphasize this with Bama fans, Saban had just one amazing year, and a bunch of good ones. He was never able to get Michigan State over any kind of hump, he failed as the Miami Dolphin head coach, and he only had one year at LSU when he lost fewer than three games. Just because Saban’s at Alabama, that doesn’t mean Florida, LSU, Tennessee, Georgia, and Auburn are going to curl up and die. It just means that Bama has a better chance of getting a turn in the SEC title rotation at some point.
i agree with that as well.

i'm thinking we'll maybe go 9-3, or even 8-4, this season. of course i'd like for us to go undefeated, but that's asking a bit much for any coach in their first year at a new school.

i just hope that other BAMA fans will realize this as well and not want to get rid of Saban if we don't beat lsu, tennessee, auburn and florida in his first games against them.

i know a lot of fans are looking for another Bear Bryant. it won't happen. he was, in my opinion, the greatest coach to ever walk the sidelines. there will never be another one like him. but i think our best shot at an sec championship and to possibly play for a national championship is with Nick Saban. i'm glad he's at ALABAMA and i welcome him with open arms and hope he can restore ALABAMA to it's long-gone glory.
Yeah I think that success comes with several years of highly succesful recruiting. You can look at all of the major programs that have had a high degree of success lately and see that, i.e. Texas, LSU, OSU. I think for fans expecting the tide to go 11-1 or undefeated next season and clamoring about a possible national title the next is a bit unrealistic. It's going to take a few years of highly succesful recruiting and keeping players in a system before the real fruits of those labors begin to really pay off.

Did Saban walk into a gold mine at LSU? Probably so. I would wager that LSU's talent then might have been better than BAMA's talent now. Having said that though, BAMA has some talent. As inadequate a head coach as Shula was he was a good recruiter. He signed a bunch of talented kids. Unfortunately he took (IMHO) a few too many gambles on kids that might have trouble qualifying. Many of our big name defensive players have never made it to campus, and defense is where BAMA is deficient right now.

Yeah I think that maybe Saban walked into a better situation then, but that's not to say that BAMA is a terrible, no-win situation either. One can argue all day long about how desirable the BAMA job is when coaches alledgedly have to deal with fanatical fans and a meddling administration, but make no mistake about it; All things considered, BAMA is still a pretty sweet job when you consider the recruiting picture and potential to win a lot of games. We're not the Idaho Vandals.

I'd be more than happy for the team to go 8-4 or 9-3 next year. That's a solid start for a coach at his new school. Hopefully we atleast beat AU, UT or LSU though. That would make it even better.
What worries me about the upcoming season is the front 7 on defense. Not only is there very little depth, the starters are not all that and box of cookies either. For some reason (even though defense carried the team during the first 3 years) Shula and company didn't recruit top of the line LBs or DLs. Now they got plenty of DBs that had the potential to be converted to LBs in CJK's defense, but not in CNS's.

Anything over 7-5 this year is is great IMO, with 7-5 being what I would consider about average for what would be expected of a new scheme on O and D, and lack of depth on defense.
I remember a quote that LeRoy Jordan made after he visited spring practice in 2005. Someone asked what he thought of what he had seen, and he said that he saw a lot of average football players. There is no doubt that we overachieved in 2005, in large part because of a few seniors of great heart and coverage, especiaally on the defensive side. We came back to earth in 2006. The way we struggled with the likes of Duke and other cream puffs on our schedule last season was telling. Talent wise we were not real high last season. That and a relatively small group of seniors really hurt our cause. We had to play a lot of underclassmen last year and that will help us some this time around. That, plus a much better organized coaching staff and a more favorable schedule (Tennesse, LSU and Arkansas all come to T-town) could have us as good as 9-3 next year.

I see us losing at Auburn, and to LSU and Georgia. If things turn sour we could lose to FSU (though they are in a similar situation to ours talent wise). My prediction is 8-4 or 9-3. It will take a couple of really good recruiting classes, IMO, for us to stand toe to toe with Auburn, LSU, Florida and Georgia.
I disagree with that assumption. I do not know who wrote

that, but the situations are totally different. Here is FACTS about Saban's coaching stops.

Toledo 1990
Toledo had losing seasons then in 1988 and 1989 were 6 and 5. Saban became coach in 1990. He posted a 9-2 record during the regular season. Lost to Central Michigan by 1 point and to Navy by 4 points.
Co-champions Mid-American Conference.

Saban spent the next few years in the pros. Wound up at Michigan St. in 1995. Michigan St. had not had a winning season since 1990. They were on probation and had forfeited all games from 1992-1994 seasons due to NCAA sanctions. Lost scholarships as part of the punishment.
1995 they went 6-5-1
1996 6-6
1997 7-5
1998 6-6 (although they beat the number 1 team in
the country, Ohio St. in Ohio stadium,
they had 3 last minute losses in the
1999 10-2(Beat Ohio St., Notre Dame, Michigan and
Penn St. Beat Florida in the citrus bowl
{he did not coach that game}. That was the
best season for Michigan St. since 1965 and
the highest ranking since 1966.)

Now on to LSU. This is LSU's record for the years 1990 through 1999, prior to Saban's arrival.

Year Coach Conference Overall
1990 Mike Archer 2-5 5-6
1991 Curley Hallman 3-4 5-6
1992 " " 1-7 2-9
1993 " " 3-5 5-6
1994 " " 3-5 4-7
1995 " " 4-3-1 7-4-1
1996 Gerry DiNardo 6-2 10-2
1997 " " 6-2 9-3
1998 " " 2-5 4-7
1999 " " 1-7 3-8

After Saban's arrival.
2000 8-4 Peach Bowl victory
2001 10-3 SEC champs Sugar Bowl victory
2002 8-5 Lost to Texas in Cotton Bowl. Tied for SEC
West. Lost tie break with Arkansas.
2003 12-1 SEC champs, National Champs
2004 9-3 Lost in Bowl game.

Now as you can see, he had significant improvement every where he went. It is a given fact that recruiting pools between Toledo, Michigan St. and LSU are not even comparable to each other. He inherited a mess with LSU. I believe he has at least the same talent at Bama as he did when he arrived at LSU. Comparing what he did at Toledo, Michigan St and LSU is not fair. Bama is a winner. Always has been. LSU was nothing before He arrived. Same with Florida and Spurrier in 1990. I am not saying that he will go undefeated and when championships every year, but there is a definite difference between the above programs and Bama. Like Stallins said, "There is just something about that Crimson jersey. You take an average football player and put him in that jersey and he just over achieves. There is just something about playing for Alabama that gets more out of average guys." That was Gene Stallins being interviewed by Paul Finebaum a few months ago.
Then there was Bobby Bowden's quote. When asked about Bama and Saban at the Regions golf tourney, he stated, "You are always going to win at Bama unless you screw up". Nuff said. Have a nice day and RTR!!
:roll: :roll: :roll:
For me I had 2 problems with the article. Again the word fluky was used to describe the 2005 season. Also he said every break went Alabama's way I don't see losing your star player to a severe injury a lucky bounce!
I didn't like the fact that this guy thinks he has to temper BAMA fans' expectations about Saban. Is he trying to justify Saban as mediocre coach? The guy is being disingenuous.

Also, I think the thing that gets overlooked is the fact that BAMA fans have been patient. We just waded through endless allegations, NCAA sanctions and mediocrity.

Yeah, there are a certain faction that ALWAYS believe that we will go 12-0 every year. It's a monster that Coach Drew, Wade, Bryant, Stalling, etc. created. That doesn't mean if Saban is 7-5 in his first season that we will be calling for his head. I think there will be improvement with the play calling from the sideline. Does that mean we win every game? No. Like Coach said, it's a work in progress. A process if you will.

Finally, what difference does it make to compare this Alabama team to a team that Dinardo built? I would take a Coach Shula coached ball club over a Dinardo club and that's saying something. I will never forget his bungle at UGA the same day we beat Florida and snapped their 36 home game winning streak with DUBOSE as head coach! The bottom line is, Alabama is Alabama. Like Mandell said in his SI column, "LSU is Alabama lite".
Thanks guys. I just like to add facts to the issues.

I normally just sit back and read the forums. But sometimes I get a little ticked at the media bias and the constant negative tactics they use. The worst thing in the world for them is for Bama to return to their rightful place. They write that type of garbage with out substantiating any of it with facts. Look, this is the bottom line FACTS. Alabama can not be compared to any other institution. Why? Because we DO have tradition and history. We do not live in the past. We just happen to have one. And we should be proud of that past. The people who always (mostly cow college fans) say, "You live in the past" or "What have you done lately?". Well, my question is simple. What have they (Auburn) done lately? I will tell you what they have done.. Underachieved. And they know it. Alabama dominated them before all this crap took place. It took the NCAA, Tennessee (Fat Phil) and the SEC (who was being ran by a Tenn. Vile grad, Kramer) to bring Alabama down to their level. With Alabama out of the picture the cow college should have dominated. They didn't. Sure they beat us 5 times in a row, but that was because of various reasons. Bad coaching, lack of players (that is what probation does to you). They could not and will not compete with Alabama when Alabama is not under the oppression of the NCAA. But, who have been the 2 most dominating schools in the SEC? Alabama by far before 1992 and Alabama and Florida since the inception of the SEC Championship game. Alabama has been on probation for the better part of 13 years. I know it is hard to believe, but it is true. Think about it. They ended up having to forfeit all the games in 1993 and took scholarship reductions. Then it was the post season band, tv restrictions, etc... 5 total years worth of sanctions including the probationary period. Then we came out of it and immediately won the SEC in 1999. (Would have won it again when Franphonie was here, but we were not eligible, imagine that.)

A little history lesson here. During that debacle, Alabama's Dr. Jones was charged with Lack of institutional control. Dr. Jones fought that in court and won. The NCAA had to pay him millions for defamation of character. But it did not help Alabama at all. The damage had been done. The University complied completely with NCAA rules. But we were "Caught red handed". Yea, right. This is how it went down... When Stallins got wind something could possibly be amiss, he asked Antonio Langham if anything had transpired and A.L. said "No". What is Stallins supposed to do? When Langham went back to him the NEXT day and told him that he had excepted $500.00 but had given it back, Stallins immediately reported it to the compliance dept. which in turn self reported the violation (with self imposed penalties) to the NCAA. Minor issue. An athlete lied. Bottom line. He got scared and lied. How does that make Alabama (the university) guilty of anything? They followed the guidelines in self reporting. But they got hammered. The NCAA had been looking for a way to nail Alabama for sometime.

Another history lesson. The feud between Alabama and the NCAA runs all the way back to Coach Bryant's day. If he would have lived, the NCAA would no longer exist. And they know it. And they have had it out for Alabama ever since. Coach Bryant was going to create (I am not sure about the name) the CFA or something like that. He had the support of MANY big programs around the country. They felt like the NCAA was hurting the power house programs by trying to help the small non-competitive schools. And frankly, Coach Bryant did not like the way they handled business. He did not like being told what to do. Right, wrong or indifferent that was Coach Bryant. This move infuriated the NCAA and they had been lying in wait for years waiting for their chance. Well, they took it at the first opportunity. But they jumped the gun. After that incident, they got mud in their eye. They (NCAA) had to issue a public apology and compensate Dr. Jones for their attack on his character. Because of that court order, the NCAA retracted the LOIC charge and paid Dr. Jones millions, but the damage had been done. We were offically known as cheaters. Put on the "We'll be watching you" list. This made them (NCAA) extremely mad. So, what did we learn from this instance? Did the University of Alabama play a part in Antonio Langham's violation? No. But they were punished for it anyway. Guilt by association I guess.

Well fast forward to the Albert Means issue. Let me first say this. I do not know if Logan Young was guilty or not. But if you look at the FACTS of the case, there was never anything proved. So, I say this; If the FBI, IRS and the TSBI could not find the money trail against Logan Young, where did it come from? They took the word of a LIAR (Lang) to convict him. They said he had proof he received that money. They never could tie that money to Logan Young with FACTS, but it did not matter in the end. Anyone could have given that money to him who wanted to hurt Alabama. Another question to ask yourself, what happened to all the OTHER schools who supposedly bid for Albert Means services? HMMM? I will tell you. Nothing. Why is that? Makes you wander doesn't it. They took the word of a felon (who by the way is coaching again) to convict Alabama and Logan Young , but that same evidence was not good enough to open investigations into the other institutions. Hmmmm. Very interesting. This is coming from the same people (NCAA) who stated, "Well this is not a court of law. We do not have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. We just have to believe it happened. And we believe it did." That was Mr. Johanigmier (sp). In the end, we were "Looking down the barrel of a gun", another famous quote of his. For what? Even if Logan Young was guilty (I do not believe it), what did it prove against the University of ALabama? Nothing. But look at what the NCAA did to Alabama. Absolutely unprecedented penalties. Took every one by surprise. I will call a cheater a cheater. A crook a crook. I do not care who or where they come from. I stood in front of Governor Guy Hunt (He was a pastor), who I voted for, and told him I thought he had compromised his integrity while in office. I say that in proof that I will call a spade a spade. But I honestly do not believe this was handled fairly.

What about the T. Martin issue? He took money from an insurance person here in Mobile. That money was funneled to him through Dewayne Rowe (a Mobile Press register sports reporter) who was fired when the story broke. That was proven. But in the end, it was all good. She was not considered a booster even though she went to Tenn. And, what a coincidence that T. Martin was from Mobile and ended up going to Tenn. Weird isn't it? Hmmm. Isn't it funny though? Logan Young was in NO WAY what so ever connected to the University. Not a graduate. Not a known booster. Nothing. But again, he was considered a "Rogue Booster" and Alabama was hammered again. Hmmm.

Then look at all the weird stuff that has happened around this case. Logan Young's death was at first reported as a murder. Later that was changed. But belive me, the police department in Memphis know a murder scene when they see it. Why the sudden change? Just google his name and you will see. Articles were written about his MURDER.

Then there was Phillip Shanks (Cottrell's lawyer)who was beaten to inches of losing his life. His office was ransacked and the only info taken was the evidence he had collected against Phillip Fulmer, Culpepper, the NCAA and this dude, Tenn Stud. Some have claimed he (Shanks) staged it. What? He is mentally impaired today (brain damage) and is going to have to leave his practice because of it.

Then there is the whole Tommy Gallion thing. Winning in court only to have the judge over turn a juries ruling. What? That case, as we all know, is in the Supreme Court right now. I know that is one man who adamantly believes that the NCAA, Fat Phil and Culpepper were all in it together. I do too. Ask yourself this question. Why would he do all this if he could not prove it? Why risk his reputation and legal practice on this if it has no merit. I believe that Phillip Fulmer (along with Culpepper) and the SEC, with Kramer at the helm, worked in unison with the NCAA to hammer Alabama. I will never believe anything other than that.

So what does all this mean. Well, to me it means that the NCAA will do what ever it takes to protect itself. It means that they (NCAA) have or had alliances with certain people (fat Phil Fulmer, Culpepper, etc...) that they used to attack Alabama. But they left a trail. And they have tried to clean it up. Do not think for one second that college football is not corrupt. You are talking about millions of dollars at stake with these coaches salaries. They do not get paid if they do not win. So, I truly belive that it is possible that this was all fabricated. Call me nuts. I doubt we will ever know the truth. We know some of it. I.E.. Fulmer being a secret witness, Culpepper being given endimnity by the NCAA to gain his testimony (lies). That is paying for testimony by the way. That in itself screams conflict of interest. But I guess I do not understand the finer points of stupidity.

Well, in the end, Auburn has benefitted by default through our problems. They did not use the time wisely and instead like to beat their chest about 5 in a row. Wow. They beat a NCAA sanctioned, lack of scholarshipped ball players, football program. What an accomplishment. Well, that day is over. For now anyway. I know Alabama will soon be back on top. They (Cow College, Fat Phil) also believe they will, and they are scared.... RTR!!!!!! :wink: ;tr
Preach on brother.
My only hope is that one day the truth comes out. I suppose it will but also fear it will be too late when it does. The only satifaction I can get about all of it is some how what comes around goes around.
I've been around long enough to know that it certainly holds true. There are some individuals out there that know they are guily and eventually it will catch up to them.
I guess that will have to do ,for now.

The Logan Young situation is extremely creepy to me.
Maybe nothing to it but the timing and how it happened will always cast doubts in my mind.

Kudzu, you are absolutely correct. I too believe it will come out, but as you said it will mean nothing. It will be to late. It is really scarey when you think about it. What will stop the NCAA from another witch hunt? People say, "Well, don't cheat". Well, I for one do not believe WE did. What I fear the most is that, when Alabama returns to prominence, someone will lob a false accusation at the University and it will be on again. They (NCAA) have proven that is all it takes. But I intend to enjoy the ride while I can. ;tr

That was as good of a synopsis of the Alabama "story" since 1993 that I have seen but you left one small piece out that ties the '93 "incident" together with the '99 "incident" and that's the whole Tyrone Beamon issue.

Tyrone Beamon, an assistant basketball coach, solicited boosters from Montgomery to set up a slush fund to recruit a blue chip basketball player from Houston, TX. Upon solicitation of these funds, in an absolute model of compliance, these boosters reported this request to the University of Alabama compliance department. The compliance department immediately self-reported to the NCAA and Beamon lost his job. The NCAA lauded the University of Alabama for it's swift and decisive action and celebrated the way the University handled the situation by extending the probation window which led us to the '99 charges and our increased sanctions because we were "repeat offenders" which increased the penalties levied after Dubose's departure.

Whether the University was culpable or not for the '99 infractions is a moot point. The NCAA was obviously, along with Fulmer and others, going to make BAMA non-competitive for years to come if they could.

No one will ever convince me that this last probation wasn't personal because to Johagenmeireirer, Yeager and Myles Brand, it was!
Bamafan4ever, you are dead on.

I had forgotten about that little tid bit. But what was funny was all the other institutions that had been labeled "Repeat offenders" for serious issues were allowed to slide when subsequent violations appeared. But Bama, being a follower of the rules, set themselves up. They really did. Fell right in the trap set by the Fat one and NCAA. Gene Marsh and Marie Robbins were culpable in that also. I believe it is Gene Marsh who hold a VERY prominent position with the NCAA. Hmmmmm. Food for thought. RTR!!!! ;pu
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