🏈 OT: It's not a calm situation at Clemson for Dabo. QB kicked off, and now "Freedom from Religion F

[TerryP]

Honestly, my first thought? Where were these people when all we heard was "It's a God thing?"

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Freedom From Religion Foundation files complaint to Clemson

The Freedom From Religion Foundation has sent a letter of complaint to Clemson University, citing "constitutional concerns about how the public university's football program is entangled with religion."

According to the foundation, Clemson football coach Dabo Swinney has promoted a culture in the program that violates constitutional stipulations of the separation of church and state.

A spokesman for the athletic department declined to comment on the letter. Cathy Sams, the university's chief public affairs officer, said her department has not completed its review of the letter but said Swinney hasn't forced his religion onto his players.

"I can't comment on any of the specifics in the letter or any of the specific concerns," Sams said. "No one is required to participate in any religious activities related to the football program. It's purely voluntary. Religion and faith is a big part of Coach Swinney's personal beliefs, but it is in no way required. There is no mandatory participation."

On another front, if you've missed this bit, Dabo kicked Chad Kelly off the Clemson team yesterday.

Kelly, who self-titled himself as "Swag," has been a bit of a character in his time at Clemson.

Last Saturday, during their spring game, he threw two interceptions which were a major part of the reason he was pulled from their starters and replaced by the guy most assumed was the back-up for 2014: Cole Stoudt...I think that's his name.

At one point Saturday he went into a "temper-tantrum" on the sidelines when the team was instructed to put on 4th and 3 inside their 40—his frustration aimed at the coaching staff.

One TV station in the area reported he ended up having to be escorted out of the football complex by police yesterday.

If you're wondering, he's Jim Kelly's nephew. I recall stories about him possibly visiting Tuscaloosa when he was being recruiting—summer of 2011, maybe?—but I can't recall if he actually made it to town or not.

 

[jdpas29]

sounds like they should have called a WAAAAAAmbulance

 

[bama alum]

I remember stories about Kelly when his name was linked to Bama. He had that reputation for being not only talented but a bit of a brat. Darn! Hate we missed out on him... :sarca:

 

[planomateo]

Obviously not Jim's kid.

 

[PhillyGirl]

One TV station in the area reported he ended up having to be escorted out of the football complex by police yesterday.

^^ I heard this was a hoax/false report. But who knows.

He also apparently got into a car accident with a staff intern recently, and proceeded to scream at her and verbally abuse her. She posted the story on her Twitter account.

Re: the religion thing, I am 100% for keeping religion a personal matter, not a public one. And Christianity is not the only religion around, contrary to what some think :icon_confused: If athletes wanna do prayer groups or Bible studies on their own time, that's great, but if my kid was playing football, I wouldn't want that stuff being a part of it (though I am aware that it tends to be in many places). Not sure how you could ever enforce it though ..

 

[planomateo]

^^ I heard this was a hoax/false report. But who knows.

He also apparently got into a car accident with a staff intern recently, and proceeded to scream at her and verbally abuse her. She posted the story on her Twitter account.

Re: the religion thing, I am 100% for keeping religion a personal matter, not a public one. And Christianity is not the only religion around, contrary to what some think :icon_confused: If athletes wanna do prayer groups or Bible studies on their own time, that's great, but if my kid was playing football, I wouldn't want that stuff being a part of it (though I am aware that it tends to be in many places). Not sure how you could ever enforce it though ..

You saw who he hit right...it was this girl.

[video=youtube;lj3iNxZ8Dww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww[/video]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="http://t.co/2PFrydmsze">pic.twitter.com/2PFrydmsze</a></p>&mdash; AliARogers (@AliARogers) <a href="https://twitter.com/AliARogers/statuses/455864603990568961">April 15, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[PhillyGirl]

You saw who he hit right...it was this girl.

[video=youtube;lj3iNxZ8Dww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww[/video]

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pic.twitter.com/2PFrydmsze
— AliARogers (@AliARogers) April 15, 2014​

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Oh god. She sounds like an Auburn grad.

Q: How do you make a blonde laugh on Saturday? A: Tell her a joke on Wednesday.

I kid, I kid.


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[tidentrue]

Separation of church and state means the STATE can't make you practice a particular religion, PERIOD. So until the Government shows up at my door and makes me go to A CHURCH at gunpoint, just STFU!!!

It's freedom OF religion, not FROM. Those morons can't even get that right.

Not gonna get into a big political/religious conversation over this, but individual words DO have meaning folks

 

[russb8903]

Separation of church and state means the STATE can't make you practice a particular religion, PERIOD. So until the Government shows up at my door and makes me go to A CHURCH at gunpoint, just STFU!!!

Well that's just 100% untrue. You can avoid the discussion all you want, but you can't make wrong and unsubstantiated claims and expect not to get called out.

 

[tidentrue]

Well that's just 100% untrue. You can avoid the discussion all you want, but you can't make wrong and unsubstantiated claims and expect not to get called out.

so what church does the Government make you attend?

 

[alabama mike]

Back to the topic thread, congrats to Coach Swinney for giving him the boot. It's a spring game for goodness sakes! Why make an idiot out of yourself in front of your entire team, disrespect your offensive coach's and Clemson fans? Not too smart.

 

[riz]

You saw who he hit right...it was this girl.

[video=youtube;lj3iNxZ8Dww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww[/video]

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<iframe style="display: none;" id="rufous-sandbox" frameBorder="0" allowTransparency="true" scrolling="no"></iframe>I'd hit it myself. :taz:

 

[ElephantStomp]

Glad Dabo have him the boot.

As for the religion thing who cares? If you don't want to be religious then don't, but on the same token don't force non religious views on people either.

I think this is a case of liberals wanting to stick their noses where it should t be. I used to be a bible carrying religious guy, but haven't been religious in a couple of years, but I have no problem with coaches having prayer or whatever.

 

[russb8903]

so what church does the Government make you attend?

I'm saying that your interpretation of church and state isn't how the law works. If they were being forced or coerced into religious events it would almost definitely qualify as a violation of what is known as the Establishment Clause. "Separation of Church and State" isn't a phrase actually used in the Constitution or law, so your deduction of its meaning is meaningless. Governmental relation to religion is dictated by the First Amendment's Establishment Clause and Free Exercise clause, and a long string of Supreme Court cases interpreting those two clauses.

 

[psychojoe]

The constitution has two clauses concerning religion.

There is the "establishment" clause and the "free exercise" clause. In the last fifty year or so there has been a lo of tension between the two. The way I see it, the government can't coerce me into a particular belief system, nor absent a compelling state interest can t prohibit me from exercising my faith, even if my doing so would offend some.

 

[JoshB]

^^ Its separation from government instilling or endorsing forcing one religion over another... My personal opinion religion has no business in government period.

This kid sounds like a little prick tho, Im sure he'll be in Auburn by the fall.

 

[It Takes Eleven]

Jim Kelley's nephew and Cliff Stoudt's son competing for playing time. Good genes.

 

[TerryP]

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Freedom From Religion Foundation takes on Clemson. Column on some in college football walking a constitutional line http://t.co/MSuinGEWmq
— Dan Wetzel (@DanWetzel) April 17, 2014​

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Responding to what it says was a complaint sent to it by a member of the public, the FFRF had one of its five staff attorneys investigate the program via open records requests over the constitutionally protected separation between church and state.

It uncovered a host of issues, from Swinney directly hiring the team chaplain (even Clemson policy says the players should choose), to coaches participating in testimonials and bible studies, to buses being organized to transport the entire team to "Church Day" at a local Baptist Church.

The letter, in great detail, cites various university policies and case law that are violated by these actions. It's a thorough letter. And it goes after Swinney, who it claims as a public employee is barred from participating in any official capacity in the religious activities of his players or underlings.

"Fire the coach, stop praying and start playing," Annie Laurie Gaylor, the co-founder and co-president of FFRF told Yahoo Sports. "I think this coach has really crossed the line."

The FFRF claims Swinney clearly shows favor to one religion – by hiring a chaplain of that religion, for instance. Thus, it says, the environment is coercive because players of different faith or no faith feel pressure to conform to the wishes of the guy who holds playing time and advancement over them.

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The university itself noted, "we are not aware of any complaints from current or former student*athletes about feeling pressured or forced to participate in religious activities."

Gaylor responds by just pointing, again, to the First Amendment. She finds bringing religion up in the recruiting process for a public school particularly troublesome and the lack of internal complaint irrelevant or even potential evidence that players fear speaking up.

"He may be self-selecting a pious bunch in recruiting," she notes. "If so, that's an even worse violation. Public universities are paid by our tax dollars. They are not to be exclusionary Christian clubs."

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[psychojoe]

FFRF is intervening where there is no problem. As to the statement implying that playing time would be based on how cooperative these players are with the coach's faith. Swinney's success and continuance as Clemson's coach is almost entirely tied to his wins and losses. It is ludicrous to suggest that his decision on who to play would be made on a basis other than which player gives the team the basis for success on the field.

 

[It Takes Eleven]

FFRF is intervening where there is no problem. As to the statement implying that playing time would be based on how cooperative these players are with the coach's faith. Swinney's success and continuance as Clemson's coach is almost entirely tied to his wins and losses. It is ludicrous to suggest that his decision on who to play would be made on a basis other than which player gives the team the basis for success on the field.

The allegation that only players who attend Bible study will get playing time is as flawed as saying only those players who go out drinking with coaches, chase girls with coaches, or smoke weed with "heathen" coaches will get playing time. It's that silly.

Each of us has a code of ethics and belief system that we employ in our personal and professional lives. Some of those are simply of our own creation, required by our employers, or learned from parents and mentors. Others are a direct outgrowth of our personal beliefs that are supported and recorded in Scripture, and deepened by our personal pursuit of a deeper understanding of religious tenets. When I take heat from a superior or co-worker who wants me to lie about or misrepresent an issue, I don't say "the Bible says I can't do that". I say, "you know what the right thing to do here is, and you know I'm not thinking about anything else".

They don't even ask anymore. That makes it easy.

RTR,

Tim