🏈 Jalen or Tua? Bobby Bowden says 'Nick can't go wrong'

[TUSKtimes]

I know exactly what that means. Kirby and his defensive staff didn't prepare for Tua. His own players said so after the game while their coach was lying through his teeth.

But realistically what could Smart do with Tua regardless of whether he felt he would get in the game? That second game is the hardest to prepare for anyway and get right and we know that from our Clemson games. And this was the shortest turnover from the semifinal game with really less than a week to prepare. The weakness of the Georgia defense was always going to be their DBs. Oklahoma proved that. We just couldn't get to the mismatches that existed with Jalen behind the wheel.

As soon as Tua had them on their heels they were exposed and then we used the mismatches to our advantage in the entire second half. I don't see how knowing Tua was playing QB or not would change the physical advantage we had with their DBs.

 

[Krimson]

I know exactly what that means. Kirby and his defensive staff didn't prepare for Tua. His own players said so after the game while their coach was lying through his teeth.

But realistically what could Smart do with Tua regardless of whether he felt he would get in the game? That second game is the hardest to prepare for anyway and get right and we know that from our Clemson games. And this was the shortest turnover from the semifinal game with really less than a week to prepare. The weakness of the Georgia defense was always going to be their DBs. Oklahoma proved that. We just couldn't get to the mismatches that existed with Jalen behind the wheel.

As soon as Tua had them on their heels they were exposed and then we used the mismatches to our advantage in the entire second half. I don't see how knowing Tua was playing QB or not would change the physical advantage we had with their DBs.

I don't think there is anything Georgia could've done if they knew when Tua was going to come in the game. Alabama was a superior team with a balanced offense and Georgia couldn't stop them. Imho wouldn't have been close if Tua played the whole game. Jalen didn't give them a balanced offense making it easier to cover those mismatches that he couldn't exploit.

 

[Tidestalker]

I know exactly what that means. Kirby and his defensive staff didn't prepare for Tua. His own players said so after the game while their coach was lying through his teeth.

But realistically what could Smart do with Tua regardless of whether he felt he would get in the game? That second game is the hardest to prepare for anyway and get right and we know that from our Clemson games. And this was the shortest turnover from the semifinal game with really less than a week to prepare. The weakness of the Georgia defense was always going to be their DBs. Oklahoma proved that. We just couldn't get to the mismatches that existed with Jalen behind the wheel.

As soon as Tua had them on their heels they were exposed and then we used the mismatches to our advantage in the entire second half. I don't see how knowing Tua was playing QB or not would change the physical advantage we had with their DBs.

The bigger picture is... How would a team prepare for Tua? Like define it... What exactly are you preparing for that's different than Jalen? And by doing so, what else would that open up for Bama? The answer to those questions make Saban's decision pretty easy if both are healthy.

The game within the game.... Just having Tua on the field makes the others more dangerous.

 

[TerryP]

BBJ, if you truly believe all of what you post you are without a doubt inept at understanding anything related to the QB position. I know you post a lot of crap on here just for the sake of arguing with whoever will argue with you but it is asinine to even put Jalen in the conversation with Tua in regards to QB talent

Passing talent. Passing. It's one part of a QB's skill set. Does Jalen have issues there? Yes. Is that all that's required of a quarterback? No.

I have no problems with people talking about Tua's future and how dynamic he may turn out to be. He shows promise of being an exceptional player. I have no problems with people watching Jalen and surmising the pressure gets to him, mentally, too quickly. We've seen that from day one (and seen it improve.)

I have problems with people saying Jalen isn't a quarterback as if passing the ball is the one and only thing that defines what a quarterback brings to the field. It's simply not true.

I agree that there are many more aspects to being a QB than just passing the ball, like reading the d, checking down, understanding timing, etc. Can Jalen do any of those well? If there has ever been a successful pro style offense with a QB who can't do those things I'm unaware of it. Jalen put up decent numbers his first year because of Lane's play calling, like a lot of his passing numbers coming from glorified hand offs. I have no doubt he could be successful at gt or Navy but not in a pro style offense.

Some of those things, I'd say yes to. Some of those things, no. I can't bring myself to say "he can't do it" because I've seen far too many QB's improve, dramatically, with the change of an offensive coordinator. (And that's not even mentioning the role of a QB coach.)

I've seen Jalen check out of plays as we all have so I know there's some sort of understanding there. How deeply that grasp of the offense is...is left to be determined. There's no way a scrimmage like A-day tells the story one way or another.

You've touched on something that takes me back to Blake--I'm not a fan of a RPO system. I am a huge fan of a pro-style set and seeing Saban move back to that mind-set before last season was encouraging: to me, as a fan, because I like watching that type of offense. Make sense?

In the past I've mentioned that what I see as announcers saying/complimenting Jalen on his stoicism very well could be defined as how far his elevator goes up. When it comes to thinking, deciding, and then acting this quickly very well may be above his mental capabilities. And that's no shot at Jalen--you'll find that in 10's of 1000's of QB's trying to make it on the collegiate level.

In the end I'm still of the same mindset I was when the conversations were "Jalen, or Cooper, or Blake." I want a QB that doesn't make bad decisions and stupid mistakes. We saw some great plays with Tua against UGA and we saw bad decisions and stupid mistakes.

Move the chains.
Don't turn the ball over.

See, I'm a pretty easy guy to please. <img alt="" src="https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.567420689.0744/pp,650x642-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg" style="width: 75px; height: 100px;" />

 

[TUSKtimes]

The bigger picture is... How would a team prepare for Tua? Like define it... What exactly are you preparing for that's different than Jalen? And by doing so, what else would that open up for Bama? The answer to those questions make Saban's decision pretty easy if both are healthy.

The game within the game.... Just having Tua on the field makes the others more dangerous.

Right. You just need the thought of diversity to be firmly implanted in the noggin for it to work. Once the defense believes it has to be responsible to cover the entire field all things open up. I've often heard that even one player that demands a double team can destroy the integrity of your opponent's scheme. With the sheer abundance of talent we have that should be scary and when it's also at QB it should get ugly.

 

[TerryP]

I know exactly what that means. Kirby and his defensive staff didn't prepare for Tua. His own players said so after the game while their coach was lying through his teeth.

But realistically what could Smart do with Tua regardless of whether he felt he would get in the game? That second game is the hardest to prepare for anyway and get right and we know that from our Clemson games. And this was the shortest turnover from the semifinal game with really less than a week to prepare. The weakness of the Georgia defense was always going to be their DBs. Oklahoma proved that. We just couldn't get to the mismatches that existed with Jalen behind the wheel.

As soon as Tua had them on their heels they were exposed and then we used the mismatches to our advantage in the entire second half. I don't see how knowing Tua was playing QB or not would change the physical advantage we had with their DBs.

The bigger picture is... How would a team prepare for Tua? Like define it... What exactly are you preparing for that's different than Jalen? And by doing so, what else would that open up for Bama? The answer to those questions make Saban's decision pretty easy if both are healthy.

The game within the game.... Just having Tua on the field makes the others more dangerous.

Agreed.

And if we do see improvement with Jalen, how do they prepare for that knowing how big of a running threat he can be? There's two edges to this sword. Are teams going to crash the ends like we've seen? How will he react? Tuck and run? (One of the biggest criticisms his frosh year if you recall.)

 

[Max]

See, I'm a pretty easy guy to please. <img alt="" src="https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.567420689.0744/pp,650x642-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg" style="width: 75px; height: 100px;" />

I can't figure that out. <img alt="" src="https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.567420689.0744/pp,650x642-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg" style="width: 75px; height: 100px;" />? What does that mean?

 

[Krimson]

BBJ, if you truly believe all of what you post you are without a doubt inept at understanding anything related to the QB position. I know you post a lot of crap on here just for the sake of arguing with whoever will argue with you but it is asinine to even put Jalen in the conversation with Tua in regards to QB talent

Passing talent. Passing. It's one part of a QB's skill set. Does Jalen have issues there? Yes. Is that all that's required of a quarterback? No.

I have no problems with people talking about Tua's future and how dynamic he may turn out to be. He shows promise of being an exceptional player. I have no problems with people watching Jalen and surmising the pressure gets to him, mentally, too quickly. We've seen that from day one (and seen it improve.)

I have problems with people saying Jalen isn't a quarterback as if passing the ball is the one and only thing that defines what a quarterback brings to the field. It's simply not true.

I agree that there are many more aspects to being a QB than just passing the ball, like reading the d, checking down, understanding timing, etc. Can Jalen do any of those well? If there has ever been a successful pro style offense with a QB who can't do those things I'm unaware of it. Jalen put up decent numbers his first year because of Lane's play calling, like a lot of his passing numbers coming from glorified hand offs. I have no doubt he could be successful at gt or Navy but not in a pro style offense.

Some of those things, I'd say yes to. Some of those things, no. I can't bring myself to say "he can't do it" because I've seen far too many QB's improve, dramatically, with the change of an offensive coordinator. (And that's not even mentioning the role of a QB coach.)

I've seen Jalen check out of plays as we all have so I know there's some sort of understanding there. How deeply that grasp of the offense is...is left to be determined. There's no way a scrimmage like A-day tells the story one way or another.

You've touched on something that takes me back to Blake--I'm not a fan of a RPO system. I am a huge fan of a pro-style set and seeing Saban move back to that mind-set before last season was encouraging: to me, as a fan, because I like watching that type of offense. Make sense?

In the past I've mentioned that what I see as announcers saying/complimenting Jalen on his stoicism very well could be defined as how far his elevator goes up. When it comes to thinking, deciding, and then acting this quickly very well may be above his mental capabilities. And that's no shot at Jalen--you'll find that in 10's of 1000's of QB's trying to make it on the collegiate level.

In the end I'm still of the same mindset I was when the conversations were "Jalen, or Cooper, or Blake." I want a QB that doesn't make bad decisions and stupid mistakes. We saw some great plays with Tua against UGA and we saw bad decisions and stupid mistakes.

Move the chains.
Don't turn the ball over.

See, I'm a pretty easy guy to please. <img alt="" src="https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.567420689.0744/pp,650x642-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg" style="width: 75px; height: 100px;" />

I completely agree with you. I was not thrilled with the rpo shift but did understand that he was trying to give the talent he had the best opportunity to win games. I don't think Saban so much wanted to change his offense to the degree he did as had to. Maybe that's why I hope Tua is the starter because I believe he gives them the best opportunity with a pro style offense. He did make his share of mistakes but that's to be expected with a young QB and he seems to have a much higher ceiling than Jalen.b
I'm not basing any opinion, other than the Mac Jones statement, off of a day game but looking at the last two years and frustration with not seeing much if any improvement. Can a QB coach change this, sure and there hasn't been a lot of time for him to do so yet but I didn't see anything click in the spring game, looked just like last two years. I do believe that a lot has to do with pressures because Jalen can check with time, a lot of time, but he's just not going to get that against top D's. And his accuracy is still suspect at best in all aspects of the passing game from missing wide open deep balls to throwing behind on short to mid level. Tua has shown more abilities in everything but the running aspect and he can do that well enough when he has to.

 

[Tidestalker]

I know exactly what that means. Kirby and his defensive staff didn't prepare for Tua. His own players said so after the game while their coach was lying through his teeth.

But realistically what could Smart do with Tua regardless of whether he felt he would get in the game? That second game is the hardest to prepare for anyway and get right and we know that from our Clemson games. And this was the shortest turnover from the semifinal game with really less than a week to prepare. The weakness of the Georgia defense was always going to be their DBs. Oklahoma proved that. We just couldn't get to the mismatches that existed with Jalen behind the wheel.

As soon as Tua had them on their heels they were exposed and then we used the mismatches to our advantage in the entire second half. I don't see how knowing Tua was playing QB or not would change the physical advantage we had with their DBs.

The bigger picture is... How would a team prepare for Tua? Like define it... What exactly are you preparing for that's different than Jalen? And by doing so, what else would that open up for Bama? The answer to those questions make Saban's decision pretty easy if both are healthy.

The game within the game.... Just having Tua on the field makes the others more dangerous.

Agreed.

And if we do see improvement with Jalen, how do they prepare for that knowing how big of a running threat he can be? There's two edges to this sword. Are teams going to crash the ends like we've seen? How will he react? Tuck and run? (One of the biggest criticisms his frosh year if you recall.)

I like the improvement talk... As you mentioned Tua making some mistakes in his BCS National Championship game winning appearance.

He's got a chance to improve a ton with real playing time. He came in with minimal pressurized game experience and played with a ton of confidence. Arguably too much confidence. I'm expecting him to improve with the mistakes he makes... Because he hasn't had a chance to make many.

In regards to the 2 things you like in a QB - Move the chains and don't turn it over. Jalen's inability to do #1 in playoff games is the biggest issue in Alabama football. By far... And his playoff statistics support that.

 

[TerryP]

I'm not basing any opinion, other than the Mac Jones statement, off of a day game but looking at the last two years and frustration with not seeing much if any improvement. Can a QB coach change this, sure and there hasn't been a lot of time for him to do so yet but I didn't see anything click in the spring game, looked just like last two years. I do believe that a lot has to do with pressures because Jalen can check with time, a lot of time, but he's just not going to get that against top D's. And his accuracy is still suspect at best in all aspects of the passing game from missing wide open deep balls to throwing behind on short to mid level. Tua has shown more abilities in everything but the running aspect and he can do that well enough when he has to.

Accurate observations all the way around. The only difference between our view points is I think I put less emphasis on what is seen during the A-day scrimmages.

 

[TerryP]

In regards to the 2 things you like in a QB - Move the chains and don't turn it over. Jalen's inability to do #1 in playoff games is the biggest issue in Alabama football. By far... And his playoff statistics support that.

Teams with good defensive ends who were crashing the line support that--playoffs are just one example. See FSU, LSU, Auburn, and of course Clemson, and Georgia.

We're going in circles here. I don't mean this to come across as an "I told you so" but crashing defensive ends and the issues it gave the offense was a subject of conversation in Jalen's frosh year. We talked about it being a weakness going into the Clemson game--and that was above and beyond facing Watson.

A direct correlation can be found in the ol' cliche, "the game is slowing down for him."

 

[T&B]

You can not judge a quarterback based on one aspect of his game. People are saying Jalen isn't a quarterback because he has problems with downfield passing

I have no idea how this idea has gained traction with a certain portion of the Bama fanbase. " We cant judge a QB on his ability to pass "

I completely, disagree.

This is the equivalent of saying of an ILB that there is more to playing ILB than making tackles. "Well, he fills all the right gaps, and gets the rest of the defense lined up, but... he cant tackle. However that's something he can work on."

While I appreciate the sentiment that there is much more than passing the ball going on at the QB position, and I agree there certainly is many other attributes that are necessary to success at that position - lets not go full delusional in an effort to prop up a player that we would all like to see be successful. Passing the ball "downfield" is absolutely necessary for a QB. The inability to do so gives the opposing defense too much leverage. At an elite level there is simply no overcoming the complete absence of a downfield passing game without an incredibly good defense, or some luck - if not both. (sound familiar ?)

What aggravates me is that this is not something we have to hypothesize about, because it has been trialed for two solid years. Two years of data/analysis shows that every time Bama plays an equally talented team with Hurts at the helm his inability to throw downfield becomes a total liability. In fact it has taken an anomaly on the defensive side of the ball to make the success of the past two years possible with this glaring weakness at the QB position.

For the life of me I cant understand why everyone is so willing to make excuses for Hurts. We wouldn't accept a WR who couldn't catch. We wouldn't accept an ILB who couldn't tackle. We wouldn't accept an OT that couldn't protect. We wouldn't accept a RB that couldn't hold on to the football. Why is everyone fine with having a QB that cant pass the ball downfield especially when there is a player on the roster than can pass the ball downfield as good as any QB in the country ? It makes zero sense.

Then there is the fact that Hurts seemingly went backwards last season. Is there anyone that wants to argue that he didn't basically implode the last month of last season ? Where is all this "he can improve as a passer" coming from ? I haven't seen anything that would suggest that. If anything he has gotten worse and worse as he has put more film out there for teams to study. He is so limited that his go-to security blanket of scrambling to the right sideline has become something opposing DC's have been able to tee-off on. Its humiliating. His ADay performance was a continuation of that.

Then there was the report that Tua took the offense straight down the field, and scored a TD in his first drive this spring right before breaking his freaking finger/thumb whatever, and by all accounts picked up right where he left off at the end of the title game. Meanwhile Hurts with Tua out for the entire spring couldn't have been handed a bigger break in his bid to take the job, and by all accounts fell directly on his face, and got out played by the third string QB in the spring game. CNS was accidentally caught audibly saying the third string QB was able to move the offense better than Hurts.

What does it take to overcome this delusion that surrounds Jalen Hurts ?

 

[alagator]

I have no idea how this idea has gained traction with a certain portion of the Bama fanbase. " We cant judge a QB on his ability to pass "

You just quoted a post and then misquoted the post.

Greg had little to no mobility in a period where we saw a lot of RPO action with QB's. Since he's not a running threat, he isn't a quarterback.
AJ fits that. Blake didn't have a good long ball so he wasn't a quarterback.

 

[alagator]

See, I'm a pretty easy guy to please. <img alt="" src="https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.567420689.0744/pp,650x642-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg" style="width: 75px; height: 100px;" />

I can't figure that out. <img alt="" src="https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.567420689.0744/pp,650x642-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg" style="width: 75px; height: 100px;" />? What does that mean?

sarcasm, i'm sure

 

[T&B]

I have no idea how this idea has gained traction with a certain portion of the Bama fanbase. " We cant judge a QB on his ability to pass "

You just quoted a post and then misquoted the post.

Clearly the sentence is speaking to the idea shared by a portion of the Bama fanbase, and not necessarily to the direct quote of Terry.

I mean maybe a little more reading comprehension necessary to deduce that, but not really.

 

[planomateo]

What does it take to overcome this delusion that surrounds Jalen Hurts ?

As you asking the delusional fans to overcome their view?

Which side is delusional again? :bolt:

 

[alagator]

@T&B, But what he's saying along with some of the others is true. There's a large portion of the Bama fan base that is judging him based purely on his abilities: downfield passing. He's done a good job leading the Bama offense and while he's struggled (not something I've seen anyone deny) with his downfield passing he's being judged on that one aspect and one aspect alone.

This judgment is continuing with little to no acknowledgment of the fact this is the first time he's had a quarterback coach in college. Lane, while a good play caller, has never been known as a quarterback coach. It's not in his wheelhouse.

 

[TerryP]

What does it take to overcome this delusion that surrounds Jalen Hurts ?

You mean people saying don't jump to conclusions about how he may progress? That's delusional? The fact people are willing to understand it's a team game, he's done a good job leading the team, and they're delusional because they are saying "don't write him off?"

Try this one on for size.

What does it take to overcome this delusion that a fan can learn a thing about quarterbacks from a glorified scrimmage AKA A-day?

 

[T&B]

What does it take to overcome this delusion that surrounds Jalen Hurts ?

You mean people saying don't jump to conclusions about how he may progress? That's delusional? The fact people are willing to understand it's a team game, he's done a good job leading the team, and they're delusional because they are saying "don't write him off?"

Try this one on for size.

What does it take to overcome this delusion that a fan can learn a thing about quarterbacks from a glorified scrimmage AKA A-day?

Why are we still talking about how he may progress ? That was a conversation for last year.


I watched his progression... he went backwards. That is how he progressed. He went backwards right up till the moment he lost his job to Tua. He got worse, and worse, and worse till finally under his "leadership" the team scored zero points vs a UGA D (secondary mostly) that gave up fifty points (thirty in the first half) to a team with a QB (Mayfield) that could take advantage of their weak secondary. BTW hello Bama gameplan ! Chokla showed you exactly where they were weak ! How on Earth did Tua not start that game ? I digress-

I do not share the idea that there is nothing to learn about a quarterback during a scrimmage game. I personally feel as though a lot can be learned. I'm not following why I've read a few opinions around here that there is nothing to be learned of a QB during a live scrimmage game. Hell, most of all evaluations the staff do are during practice if I'm not mistaken. Can you not see the release ? Arm strength ? Anticipation ? Poise ? Ability to get through progressions ? Accuracy ? Etc., Etc., Etc.,

What does a conversation about performance have to do with team leadership ? If hes such a good leader he can do that from the sidelines, but something tells me he will be playing elsewhere once he officially loses the job at which point I would ask is he still the leader everyone thought he was ? (totally hypothetical, and not a fair question I admit, but interesting food for thought none the less)

Through all of this QB debate that has raged for two years now I've never understood all the emotion involved with the conversation.

 

[TerryP]

Why are we still talking about how he may progress ? That was a conversation for last year.

That's already answered in this thread. This is the first year he's had an dedicated quarterback coach. (Coming from a guy that's not that overly impressed with Enos to date.)

I watched his progression... he went backwards. That is how he progressed.

QBR: Improved
TD's: Improved
INT's: Improved

There's roughly a 2 percentage point difference in completions which is a direct result in having a new coordinator and a new offensive scheme. That resulted in fewer yards, fewer attempts and fewer completions. (That's as a team and Jalen alone.)

So, what we have here ... fewer interceptions, more touchdowns, and a better QB rating but that's him going backwards, regressing?

BTW, conversely, we also saw fewer rushing attempts last season with better results.