🏈 Recruiting PSU players?

musso said:
the most ludicrous statements i've read on this board in quite a while.

first of all, voluntary exchanges are never a zero-sum game. consensual trade benefits all members involved, otherwise they wouldn't engage in it.

secondly, you'd have a hell of a time trying to convince Saban that his program only benefited him and the university and not his players. any other confident coach would feel the same way.

thirdly, who are you guys to know what is better for the PSU players? if they believe transferring to another school is in their best interests, so be it. if anyone is looting the current PSU players, it's the NCAA who insanely thinks justice is punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.
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"the most ludicrous statements I've read..."

I'm failing to see how your response quoting my thought has any relation.

Before the sanctions are announced, a coach is reviewing a roster of players to see who he wants to offer and that's being characterized as something that benefits the student first and foremost?

This entire debacle, and the NCAA's response, was supposed to be about changing the culture of college footballs role. If recruiting a kid before you're even able to...and making this all about recruiting...what's that say about the culture of said coach?

There is no voluntary exchange here. It's a kid that has a desire to play football at Penn State and enjoy every aspect of it and now isn't afforded the opportunity. That's a forced exchange.
 
if they want to leave and reach out to a particular school or set of schools so be it....

but for a coach to make the inital contact and say how about coming here (recruit)....just seems like trying to pick up chics at a funeral to me.
 
TerryP said:
"the most ludicrous statements I've read..."

I'm failing to see how your response quoting my thought has any relation.

Before the sanctions are announced, a coach is reviewing a roster of players to see who he wants to offer and that's being characterized as something (1) that benefits the student first and foremost?

(2) This entire debacle, and the NCAA's response, was supposed to be about changing the culture of college footballs role. If recruiting a kid before you're even able to...and making this all about recruiting...what's that say about the culture of said coach?

(3) There is no voluntary exchange here. It's a kid that has a desire to play football at Penn State and enjoy every aspect of it and now isn't afforded the opportunity. That's a forced exchange.
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  1. Don't create a strawman Terry. I never claimed that a transfer would benefit the student first and foremost. I merely reminded you and the other poster that a voluntary decision by a PSU player to transfer and a voluntary decision to accept that player by another school benefits both parties.
  2. I couldn't care less about the propriety of recruiting PSU players. That is a tangential issue to the one I am addressing.
  3. Your language here is muddled. The entity exerting force upon the PSU players isn't an interested coach from another school who might offer them a more desirable alternative football career to the one that now lies before them at PSU. Rather, the agent of force is the NCAA who has now unnecessarily (and wrongfully I believe) stolen from the PSU players the level of enjoyment and success that would have likely been attained otherwise.

Simply put, your use of phrases like feeding frenzy, poach, for the coach's benefit, and looting portray unfairly the event of a transfer as a zero-sum game wherein the player is being somehow exploited by rival schools. All I'm saying is, if there is any exploitation occurring, it's the NCAA's unwarranted decision to include the current PSU roster in its response to the criminality by others. The decision by a current PSU player to escape this injustice by accepting an offer to play elsewhere necessarily benefits BOTH himself and his new team.
 
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musso said:
  1. Don't create a strawman Terry. I never claimed that a transfer would benefit the student first and foremost. I merely reminded you and the other poster that a voluntary decision by a PSU player to transfer and a voluntary decision to accept that player by another school benefits both parties.
  2. I couldn't care less about the propriety of recruiting PSU players. That is a tangential issue to the one I am addressing.
  3. Your language here is muddled. The entity exerting force upon the PSU players isn't an interested coach from another school who might offer them a more desirable alternative football career to the one that now lies before them at PSU. Rather, the agent of force is the NCAA who has now unnecessarily (and wrongfully I believe) stolen from the PSU players the level of enjoyment and success that would have likely been attained otherwise.

Simply put, your use of phrases like feeding frenzy, poach, for the coach's benefit, and looting portray unfairly the event of a transfer as a zero-sum game wherein the player is being somehow exploited by rival schools. All I'm saying is, if there is any exploitation occurring, it's the NCAA's unwarranted decision to include the current PSU roster in its response to the criminality by others. The decision by a current PSU player to escape this injustice by accepting an offer to play elsewhere necessarily benefits BOTH himself and his new team.
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Look at where this started. It was the actions of a coach I was commenting on with the original post you quoted.

If you have a coach who was already looking at kids and figuring out which ones they are going after before the announcement of any sanctions, or any permissible transfers, had taken place...it's a feeding frenzy beginning. I don't like the culture or attitude a coach has if he's putting the cart before the horse to that extent.

I do see what you're saying, but took issue because I don't think you took my comment in its context.

I guess if I wanted to bottom line it...I don't like the idea of it being permissible to suddenly pursue kids unfettered without having some system of checks and balances in place. IE: a kid making it known he wanted to transfer would be a good, first step.
 
TerryP said:
I guess if I wanted to bottom line it...I don't like the idea of it being permissible to suddenly pursue kids unfettered without having some system of checks and balances in place. IE: a kid making it known he wanted to transfer would be a good, first step.
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The rules for recruiting Penn State players were established by the NCAA to 1) allow players an option to escape the punishment of the program; and 2) inflict damage as quickly as possible to the program (getting scholarship players to 65 or fewer ASAP). Players attached to the school and team can hold the rope and soldier on, or they can pursue other opportunities. The way I read the announcement, getting a player in their last year or two of eligibility will impair the receiving school's numbers moving forward. If a team picks up a senior and goes to 86 scholarships, the team could only have 84 players the next year. Because of that hit in total numbers (if I'm interpreting correctly), I don't think you'll see more than two or three going to the same school, and perhaps few seniors going at all.

We should know pretty quickly. The rules are the rules. I don't considering it looting. The kids must initiate the contact process, so that means they want out (or are considering it). The rules provide the means in which to do it. The kids leaving will be an unsavory, but necessary, process.

RTR,

Tim
 
Musso, I have no idea where you come up with my post being ludicrous!! What I said is merely fact!! If a coach is sitting there on Sunday night before the sanctions even come out, with the Penn State roster in his hand, "looking to see who we want to offer", that is like a vulture picking the decaying flesh off of a carcass. Tell me I'm wrong!! If the student-athlete calls the school, then it is beneficial for the student and the school. The kid is looking out for his interests first and the school is going to possibly be willing to take them on board. Saban said it best this morning when Chris Fowler asked IF he would pursue PSU players. He said that you have to look at the student-athlete as a whole. Some of these kids may have some issues and be looking for an out,ie. possible issues with the staff, discipline issues,etc. We have to look at who would be a fit! Look at Terry's comment and my previous ones as well. Saban probably doesn't go after any current roster players because they simply don't fit our system or style of play. Current recruits could be the exception though; the #1 rated QB, top OL, top DE. Hell, our old friend Lane Kiffin has already been in contact with Silas Redd, the junior RB there. You consider him to be someone looking out for the student-athletes' best interests? I didn't think so!! He is looking for an immediate fix to circumvent the sanctions that depleted his depth there at USC. A little piece of advice for you Musso, always take a couple extra moments to re-read a post before you go jumping on someone and calling their comments ludicrous!
 
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It Takes Eleven said:
The rules for recruiting Penn State players were established by the NCAA to 1) allow players an option to escape the punishment of the program; and 2) inflict damage as quickly as possible to the program (getting scholarship players to 65 or fewer ASAP). Players attached to the school and team can hold the rope and soldier on, or they can pursue other opportunities. The way I read the announcement, getting a player in their last year or two of eligibility will impair the receiving school's numbers moving forward. If a team picks up a senior and goes to 86 scholarships, the team could only have 84 players the next year. Because of that hit in total numbers (if I'm interpreting correctly), I don't think you'll see more than two or three going to the same school, and perhaps few seniors going at all.

We should know pretty quickly. The rules are the rules. I don't considering it looting. The kids must initiate the contact process, so that means they want out (or are considering it). The rules provide the means in which to do it. The kids leaving will be an unsavory, but necessary, process.

RTR,

Tim
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Where have you seen that Tim?
 
TerryP said:
Where have you seen that Tim?
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The rules on page 1 of the thread say that the student must inform PSU of their interest in discussing transfer options with other schools, and the other schools must inform PSU of their intent to open discussions. Based upon the rule, both must occur before actual contact occurs. Two to tango, so to speak. Now, in reality, we all know the back channel communications are burning down high school coaching offices and households.

"Permission-to-contact rules will be suspended. Penn State cannot restrict in any way a student-athlete from pursuing a possible transfer. Student-athletes must simply inform Penn State of their interest in discussing transfer options with other schools. Interested schools also must inform Penn State of their intention to open discussions with the student-athlete."
 
musso said:
Ok, you're wrong.

If only I could win all debates this easily.
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:rofl: There is no win or lose with you musso...I recall too vividly past conversations that seem to conclude one day, only to show up again in a month or so.

Hell, that's just who you are...it's one of the things that makes you fun around here.
 
[h=1]NCAA clarifies PSU transfer rules[/h]
Posted by Ben Kercheval on July 24, 2012, 6:30 PM EDT
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Despite all the sanctions the NCAA levied on Penn State yesterday, it’s tough to argue it didn’t do just about everything it could to give PSU’s players a clearly marked escape route in the event they want to transfer. Because the Nittany Lions will not be eligible for a Big Ten title or bowl game any time soon, not to mention the steep scholarship reductions, it’s not too hard to believe there will be more than a few players who take advantage of the chance to move on.
The NCAA took the liberty of clarifying the transfer policies regarding the situation. You can read the whole release HERE, but below are some of the highlights:

  • Current PSU football players can transfer to any NCAA school (all divisions) during the 2012-13 academic year and be immediately eligible, including those who transfer mid-season. Those players just have to be academically eligible. The deadline for this exemption is preseason camp in 2013. NCAA transfer rules normally mandate that an athlete sit out a year if they transfer between Division 1-A programs.
  • Any incoming player can be released from his National Letter of Intent and will be allowed to compete immediately without being considered a transfer.
  • Permission-to-contact rules are suspended. Penn State cannot prevent players from being re-recruited so long as the athlete and interested schools inform Penn State first.
  • Off-campus and telephone recruiting rules have been suspended until the first day of classes for Penn State on Aug. 27. Additionally, official visit rules have been loosened.
  • If a player transfers to another school this fall after it has already reached its scholarship limit for the 2012-13 academic year, the new school may exceed that limit provided it proportionally reduces scholarship numbers for the 2013-14 academic year. In other words, if the new school signed 25 players in 2012 and a PSU transfer gives it 26, that school can still take in the transfer so long as it only signs 24 players next signing class.
  • However, if a school is facing scholarship reductions because of NCAA sanctions — USC, for example — it can still add the transfer as long as it doesn’t exceed the limits specified in its infractions ruling.
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USC is in the mix for Silas Redd. Kiffin has depth issues because of sanctions and he is looking for help. I don't think he should be able to since the sanctions were given for that intended purpose. Richt was asked on ESPN yesterday and he said that he had assistants looking the roster over. With all of their suspensions, he is looking for immediate help for the first 3-4 games.

Seems that the NCAA has told USC that they can't exceed their 75 scholarship limit due to their penalties. Supposedly, they do have a little room though.
 
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