| FTBL Questions about a 3-4 defense

[musso]

what are the typical differences between the two outside LBs and two inside LBs? for example, which ones are usually bigger and which are usually more mobile?

 

[Guest]

what are the typical differences between the two outside LBs and two inside LBs? for example, which ones are usually bigger and which are usually more mobile?

BIG inside, but not to big with good side to side speed.

Outside is lighting fast not so big.

Although, it's nice combo lets call it Thunder and Lighthing. Alabama is a lacking the BIG TIME size hopeful #25 has grown some he was a great freshman.

 

[TerryP]

You have heard the term "tweeners" before, I'm sure. That's the best way I've heard the OLB'ers described...between a DE and a ILB.

 

[mongo4bama]

The tweeners can get caught in mismatches as per this year with rb's.

 

[imported_porkchop]

what are the typical differences between the two outside LBs and two inside LBs? for example, which ones are usually bigger and which are usually more mobile?

You want your outside backers faster. One of these guys often will play with a hand to the ground (making it look like a 4-3) to rush the passer. Plus, your other outside backer has pass coverage responsibilities so you want speed there. Inside backers are usually considerably bigger.

 

[TerryP]

Two of these guys are inside linebackers, and are expected to weigh roughly 240 pounds and be quite athletic. You also have two outside linebackers. These guys are sometimes called "tweeners," as they are in between the normal size of defensive ends and linebackers. These guys should weigh perhaps 255-265 pounds and also be quite athletic. Because these are linebackers, they tend to be faster than the heavier defensive ends. Their presence makes it much more difficult for the quarterback to roll out, as he will be rolling out directly into the path of one of these linebackers.

Here's a link I came across awhile back

 

[musso]

thanks guys for the feedback. that's what i would have guessed, but i wasn't sure ... reason being exactly what mongo said. if your big D-linemen are all alligned between both O-tackles (as i understand in a 3-4), it seems to me that your defense would be vulnerable to outside runs, particularly with a pulling guard, tight end, and even a fullback all leading the way.

furthermore, a 3-4 requires your front seven to be heavier than a 4-3, thus making it a bit slower and less proficient at tacking in space as so many offenses require defenses to do these days. it just seems to me that with the popularity of the spread offense, defenses need to be shedding excess weight and placing more people off the line of scrimmage rather than doing the opposite.

a defense such as a 4-3, which requires only two [big] interior D-linemen, seems more suitable to face the kind of offenses of today. think back to Kines' defenses that finished consecutive seasons at #2 in total defense - our defensive players weren't very heavy but were particularly fast. during those two seasons, i believe i witnessed the best swarming and tackling Bama defenses since 1992.

anyway, does anyone understand my concern? agree/disagree?

 

[rammerjammer]

Great Topic Musso!!

Everything you say makes perfect sense about the shedding of weight and the need for speed, but one thing to keep in mind is the style of play that Saban wants from his D. I know over the past few years and even when Kines was hired there was a lot of concern over the bend but don't break philosophy. While he didn't necessarily play that style he still used a read/react style and played a containment type D. The D would allow you to run side to side all day long, but going vertical was another story. While it wasn't the most aggressive or exciting style of defensive play it was by all accounts effective. Bottom line the defense did it's job and did so quite well.

Back to my original thought. Saban likes for his defense to dictate to the offense and not vice versa. Therefore if our front three are hosses and stay in the backfield of the opposing team then I say a few pounds don't hurt.............Guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Guest]

Kines' base defense may have been a 4-3, but we ran ALOT of 3-3-5 during his tenure.

 

[bear facts]

I know one darn thing: whatever defense we line up in when it's 3rd and 15 or longer needs to be reconsidered.

How many times since Coach fRan's tenure have Bama's defense found itself in this situation only to give up a first down? :twisted:

I want that type of big play or conversion by the other team to cease in 2008. That's one of my wishes for the upcoming season.

 

[musso]

Kines' base defense may have been a 4-3, but we ran ALOT of 3-3-5 during his tenure.

i realize that, but i was too lazy to include that as i typed my previous post. even still, this illustrates my point that our defensive personel was lighter and quicker than it will be under Saban's 3-4. i just don't understand how placing a total of 5 [big/heavy] players at the line of scrimmage will help us against spread offenses, the best of which will be using smaller and elusive skill personel. i'm sure Saban understands the offensive trends of today, but it just seems to me that a lighter defense with more defensive personel playing off the line of scrimmage is needed against today's prolific offenses. :?

 

[imported_porkchop]

One thing about Saban's defenses too Moose is that he plays an attacking style of D, as someone mentioned. I much prefer that over "bend, don't break" philosophy.

With the 3-4 you basically have a 4-3, but it's a bit more disguised since you have a linebacker often playing with the hand down. From that, you can rush the passer, fill a gap/hold the edge, drop off, or even zone blitz. Not to mention the blitz angles you get from the other backers/secondary.

Saban was renouned for this while at LSU. He was a rich man's Joe Lee Dunn, in that he'd bring a blitz from the backyard if you weren't looking for it.

Having said all that, I've always been partial to the 4-3 but mainly because I'm a little more familiar with it, and I prefer a 4-man front against running teams.

 

[musso]

Two of these guys are inside linebackers, and are expected to weigh roughly 240 pounds and be quite athletic. You also have two outside linebackers. These guys are sometimes called "tweeners," as they are in between the normal size of defensive ends and linebackers. These guys should weigh perhaps 255-265 pounds and also be quite athletic. Because these are linebackers, they tend to be faster than the heavier defensive ends. Their presence makes it much more difficult for the quarterback to roll out, as he will be rolling out directly into the path of one of these linebackers.

Here's a link I came across awhile back

so terry, this article seems to disagree with what optimus and chop said regarding ILBs vs OLBs. :?

i just now finished reading it, and for what it's worth, the article implicitly presents a case that the 4-3 would be the best defense so long as the DBs are physical with the opposing receivers.

 

[imported_porkchop]

In the 3-4, you have four linebackers. Two of these guys are inside linebackers, and are expected to weigh roughly 240 pounds and be quite athletic. You also have two outside linebackers. These guys are sometimes called "tweeners," as they are in between the normal size of defensive ends and linebackers. These guys should weigh perhaps 255-265 pounds and also be quite athletic. Because these are linebackers, they tend to be faster than the heavier defensive ends. Their presence makes it much more difficult for the quarterback to roll out, as he will be rolling out directly into the path of one of these linebackers.

Is that what you're referring to Moose? If so, I find that a bit odd to say the least. Normally outside backers are not as heavy as their "tank" brethren that play inside, but hey...I'm not a college coach either. The article does go on to say though that these guys should be quite athletic and they tend to be faster than traditional DE's, which was basically the point of my post. Speed at the OLB spots.

Good catch though and an interesting article and topic.

 

[musso]

Here's a link I came across awhile back

from the article:

In the 4-3 defense, you need two very large and athletic defensive tackles and two somewhat large and very athletic defensive ends. These guys are very hard to find. It seems there's about one excellent defensive end prospect in each draft, which is not nearly enough to go around. If you can't find a couple of good defensive ends, you're in for a long season of living and dying by the blitz

this may be true in the NFL since the O-tackles are better skilled and offenses are more efficient, but not in college. the dynamics are different in the NCAA, for quality college DEs can weigh as little as 250 lbs.

One reaction to this has been to develop the 3-4 defense. In this defense, you need one really large nose tackle. This NT has to be a real monster of a guy, 350 pounds or so, because his job is to take on the center and one of the guards simultaneously on every single play. Then you get two more defensive tackles at around 300 pounds each, and play them up against the offensive tackles.

ok, really now, how many high school prospects do you really want to place on the D-line who weigh 300+ lbs.? if they are already that heavy at such a young age, they probably won't be physically fit to play defense. plus, you have to consider that when put on a training program in college, linemen inevitably gain weight regardless of how much they weighed on National Signing Day. by the time players are in the NFL, they are much better conditioned even if at such heavy weights. furthermore, D-linemen in the 275-300 lbs range are much more plentiful than the 300+ lbs monsters required in a 3-4.

In the 3-4, you select your four linebackers for the speed to drop back and cover a zone. Since there are four linebackers, the quarterback cannot guess which one of the four will rush on any given play. Whichever linebacker rushes, it's relatively easy for the other three to shift around a bit and fill in the zones. Sometimes the defense will rush two linebackers on the same side, so there are two defensive tackles and two linebackers attacking three offensive linemen. The remaining two linebackers again can quickly shift over to fill in the gaps left by the two who are blitzing.

hmm ok, then why not simply use a 4-3, line up both DEs slightly outside their opposing O-tackles (creating considerable gaps in the D-line), and blitz one of your three LBs? if you did this, you'd have constant outside pressure on every passing down which is the most important anyway since inside pressure seldom results in sacks. plus, you'd have a lighter and quicker front seven better suited to defend the pass. moreover, it would be a far simpler scheme for the defense to learn.

The 3-4 defense can have trouble matching up against a very fast offense. It's important for the success of the 3-4 in these cases for the defense to play an extremely physical game, jamming the receivers hard at the line of scrimmage.

exactly the point i made earlier about facing fast, spread offenses. due to the front seven in a 3-4 being heavier and presumably bigger, they are less suited to cover and tackle in space. i can see how a polished spread option offense (e.g. West Va, Florida) or any variant that employs misdirection with quality receivers and/or running backs could easily eat a bulky, physical 3-4 for lunch.

i think a 4-3 that possesses two DTs in the 290-lbs range, two DEs in the 265-lbs range, and three LBs in the 230-lbs range, would be ideal. in obvious running/short yardage situations you could simply insert an additional DT and remove a LB or DB. on obvious passing downs, you could simply line up one or two of your LBs on the line of scrimmage, slide your DEs just outside of their opposing O-tackles, and put a greater pass rush at both ends while mixing up who blitzes up the middle. you might even decide to drop a DT into a shallow zone coverage while still applying outside pressure with both DEs. as i see it, the options for confusing blitz packages are still available in a 4-3 even though the 3-4 seemingly has earned the reputation for creating greater confusion for QBs.

am i missing something?

 

[musso]

In the 3-4, you have four linebackers. Two of these guys are inside linebackers, and are expected to weigh roughly 240 pounds and be quite athletic. You also have two outside linebackers. These guys are sometimes called "tweeners," as they are in between the normal size of defensive ends and linebackers. These guys should weigh perhaps 255-265 pounds and also be quite athletic. Because these are linebackers, they tend to be faster than the heavier defensive ends. Their presence makes it much more difficult for the quarterback to roll out, as he will be rolling out directly into the path of one of these linebackers.

Is that what you're referring to Moose? If so, I find that a bit odd to say the least. Normally outside backers are not as heavy as their "tank" brethren that play inside, but hey...I'm not a college coach either. The article does go on to say though that these guys should be quite athletic and they tend to be faster than traditional DE's, which was basically the point of my post. Speed at the OLB spots.

Good catch though and an interesting article and topic.

i understood you and optimus as saying that the faster/more mobile LBs in a 3-4 are the OLBs, but the article states that they are ideally heavier than the ILBs. i'm assuming that the heavier OLBs will be slower than the ILBs since they may be up to 25 lbs heavier.

 

[imported_porkchop]

Dude, you quote way too many things to even begin to try and figure out how to respond without spending an hour on a reply. :lol:

Good thread though and I'll try to re-read your post and respond tomarrow. Gotta get back to signing day stuff right now. I love this time of year but it's also one of my busiest periods.

 

[musso]

haha, sorry man. well, when you get a chance i'd love for you, terry, and the others to keep this going.

it's just that while everyone knows Saban's defensive reputation, i've been concerned at how his 3-4 will work today in college. in the short while that he's been out of college, the spread offense has really taken off. i can see how in the NFL with more conservative offenses, the 3-4 has thrived. however, in the NCAA the offenses are more diverse and creative, and the disparity in athleticism is greater.

 

[mongo4bama]

musso I share your concerns about the 3-4 with which we are sticking with this year.

If you look back at last year 4-3 was the base defense but maybe talent had something to do with not playing the 3-4.

I think though that we will see a D alot like last year but better execution and more variations added but younger specifacly in DB's.

 

[imported_porkchop]

In the 3-4, you have four linebackers. Two of these guys are inside linebackers, and are expected to weigh roughly 240 pounds and be quite athletic. You also have two outside linebackers. These guys are sometimes called "tweeners," as they are in between the normal size of defensive ends and linebackers. These guys should weigh perhaps 255-265 pounds and also be quite athletic. Because these are linebackers, they tend to be faster than the heavier defensive ends. Their presence makes it much more difficult for the quarterback to roll out, as he will be rolling out directly into the path of one of these linebackers.

Is that what you're referring to Moose? If so, I find that a bit odd to say the least. Normally outside backers are not as heavy as their "tank" brethren that play inside, but hey...I'm not a college coach either. The article does go on to say though that these guys should be quite athletic and they tend to be faster than traditional DE's, which was basically the point of my post. Speed at the OLB spots.

Good catch though and an interesting article and topic.

i understood you and optimus as saying that the faster/more mobile LBs in a 3-4 are the OLBs, but the article states that they are ideally heavier than the ILBs. i'm assuming that the heavier OLBs will be slower than the ILBs since they may be up to 25 lbs heavier.

I was under the impression that OLB's in the 3-4 were lighter than their ILB counterparts. Of course, I could have been wrong there and gotten my defenses mixed up too. Like I said earlier, I was always partial to the 4-3 and if you look at the ideal 4-3 like BAMA had a couple of years ago you see guys like Juwan and DeMeco playing on the edge with your "hoss" Roach manning the middle.

I guess with an extra DL you can have smaller, speedier outside backers, and in a 3-4 you need bigger OLB's. That makes some sense but it still seems that due to coverages (and your down backer being a rusher a lot of times) you'd look for speed more than bulk. On the other hand, I guess you want size on the edge to counter the loss of an extra DL against an offense that hits the corners on the run.

I still take some issue though with the theory that ILB's are lighter than OLB's in the 3-4. We've seen it first-hand at BAMA this year when you have guys like Prince Hall and Darren Mustin playing the middle and they're the biggest backers we have. McClain himself goes at about 255 and he plays MLB. All those guys play at between 235 and 255, which is huge. Bigger than our average OLB. The only guy on the edge with comparable size is Knight who goes at about 235.

Then consider our ILB's are backed up by people like Stamps and Waldrop. Neither are very big (with Stamps going at about 200 lbs).

So is maybe the question? are we playing a faster/hybrid 3-4, or are we playing people that have no business playing in the first place? ;sus