| FTBL New info. regarding Josh Chapman

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http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1187772553306580.xml&coll=2

Am I making this much too simple by thinking he won't be eligible now? Once the NCAA sees this is he JUCO or prep bound?

From the article...
Bishop said he and Hoover Superintendent Andy Craig agreed not to formally correct the second transcript, which was sent to the NCAA Clearinghouse for review of eligibility, because the grade-change error was strictly Hoover's.

Craig said he didn't want to discuss an individual case, but "if an error was made on a grade/transcript in favor of the student, as a general rule, I don't think we would punish the student for a mistake that we made."


Huh? Me thinks the Clearinghouse won't view it this way.
 

gary funderburk

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Extra Point Club
The problem I see with this is it does punish the student. So he got a B when he should have got a C. Ok I get that. But what now? Do you tell the kid, hey even though you have been here and been busting your butt, you are now not good enough for us. He has been there in school at UA right? I feel for this kid. I know he is probably JUCO bound now but Hoover has put this kid through a great deal of pain. Oh well it is what it is.
 
G

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Porter or anyone else that may know more about the clearinghouse and future eligibility feel free to shed some light. :)

I'm just making several assumptions on my own.
 

alagator

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Century Club
gary funderburk said:
The problem I see with this is it does punish the student.
How does Chatman receiving the actual grade he EARNED punish him?

So what if his correct grade leaves him ineligible to play football at UA. Taking away something he apparently NEVER merited with the true and accurate grades he earned is NOT punishment. Rewarding him with an opportunity he apparently did not deserve is patently unfair to all the other students who earned sufficient grades through their hard work.

I, for one, do not see this as a 'honest mistake' by the individual(s) at Hoover. This was a blatant effort to find some way to ensure the young man had the opportunity to be awarded something (the UA scholarship) for which he apparently did not deserve based on his demonstrated performance.

I want to know exactly what questions our admissions and compliance people asked when they received the second transcript. This stinks. And the smell is coming from Hoover and Tuscaloosa.

It appears all the crowing UA fans were doing about the situation in Mobile has turned full circle here.
 

gary funderburk

Verified Member
Extra Point Club
alagator said:
gary funderburk said:
The problem I see with this is it does punish the student.
How does Chatman receiving the actual grade he EARNED punish him?

So what if his correct grade leaves him ineligible to play football at UA. Taking away something he apparently NEVER merited with the true and accurate grades he earned is NOT punishment. Rewarding him with an opportunity he apparently did not deserve is patently unfair to all the other students who earned sufficient grades through their hard work.

I, for one, do not see this as a 'honest mistake' by the individual(s) at Hoover. This was a blatant effort to find some way to ensure the young man had the opportunity to be awarded something (the UA scholarship) for which he apparently did not deserve based on his demonstrated performance.

I want to know exactly what questions our admissions and compliance people asked when they received the second transcript. This stinks. And the smell is coming from Hoover and Tuscaloosa.

It appears all the crowing UA fans were doing about the situation in Mobile has turned full circle here.
Regardless of your clear attempts to put the U of A in the middle of the scandal, it won't work. The university was questioning the same things brought to light. As for punishment, my line was more towards what THE STUDENT has been through. If he was told he made the grades, prepared accordingly (which are life altering plans) only to be told he now has to be sent to a JUCO after he made friends, established a home/apt or whatever then yes i see it as BS. I am not saying it was right for Hoover to do it and Chapman should benefit from it. I am saying I feel for Chapman. He was led to believe he was in the clear. Quit being so transparent.
 

Wiseace615

Verified Member
Extra Point Club
alagator said:
I want to know exactly what questions our admissions and compliance people asked when they received the second transcript. This stinks. And the smell is coming from Hoover and Tuscaloosa.

It appears all the crowing UA fans were doing about the situation in Mobile has turned full circle here.

Hoover High math teacher Forrest Quattlebaum said in June that a final grade for a senior football player in his class was changed from a B to an A without his consent.

According to Bishop, Alabama's compliance office informed Hoover's guidance department of a concern regarding a player's first transcript shortly after Memorial Day. Bishop said Alabama told the guidance department that the player was "so many hundredths of a point" shy of being eligible and that there had to be a problem, because Alabama had thought the student's eligibility wasn't an issue.

Bishop said Hoover counselors Cindy Bond and Marley Stephens assumed there had been a mistake due to a rounding error with the computer system. Bond and Stephens had been checking grades that were not correctly rounded up and reported 36 such problems, Bishop said.

If I read this correctly it would seem that the compliance department from Alabama caught the discrepancy and contacted the Guidance Department at Hoover. Hoover High then sent a "corrected" transcript with the explanation that there was a "mistake" with the math on the original and the grade should have been rounded up.

If this was the case I don't see how the "smell" can be coming from Tuscaloosa if they in fact caught the mistake, questioned it, and were sent what was supposed to be a properly corrected transcript.

This is a complicated situation from the student's standpoint. While I agree that it is unfair to other students to give him credit for a grade that he didn't earn, it is also unfair to the student to pull him from the program if the grade change was made without his knowledge or involvement.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
 

alagator

Verified Member
Century Club
gary funderburk said:
Regardless of your clear attempts to put the U of A in the middle of the scandal, it won't work. The university was questioning the same things brought to light. As for punishment, my line was more towards what THE STUDENT has been through. If he was told he made the grades, prepared accordingly (which are life altering plans) only to be told he now has to be sent to a JUCO after he made friends, established a home/apt or whatever then yes i see it as BS. I am not saying it was right for Hoover to do it and Chapman should benefit from it. I am saying I feel for Chapman. He was led to believe he was in the clear. Quit being so transparent.
My 'clear attempt' is to point out that the people in authority at UA SHOULD have had alarms pounding in their heads when the changed transcript came in that suddenly eliminate the eligibility concerns they had about Chapman. For all I know, these people MAY HAVE made a number of inquiries to the people at Hoover. I really would like to know the depths of our due diligence on the matter - and how readily we accepted the explanation given.

Your statement said that UA did make such inquiries, as I quote you, "The university was questioning the same things brought to light." Since you seem to know the answer to my questions, would you care to provide the detail behind your knowledge.

On an aside. You seem to have a problem with me being clear and precise in my comments - or as you say 'transparent.' Would you prefer I be more secretive and illusory in making my points? Would you rather have to guess at what message or opinion I intend to convey or have my comments clear? I can do it either way, just for you.
 

gary funderburk

Verified Member
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Transparent, that would be you attempting to pull down the university which you CLAIM to root for. You seem to think everything negative about the university and our fans rather than let it take its course and see the final outcome. That is what I meant about being transparent. I question your loyalty to the Tide. Couldn't be an honest mistake, no way. Bama must be up to something. As far as the University looking into it here..."Whenever we receive information questioning any student-athlete's eligibility, we evaluate that information and take appropriate action according to the circumstances," Alabama spokesman Doug Walker said.
Evidently they have a process and all we need to do is let it take its course before assuming anything.
 
G

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alagator said:
My 'clear attempt' is to point out that the people in authority at UA SHOULD have had alarms pounding in their heads when the changed transcript came in that suddenly eliminate the eligibility concerns they had about Chapman. For all I know, these people MAY HAVE made a number of inquiries to the people at Hoover. I really would like to know the depths of our due diligence on the matter - and how readily we accepted the explanation given.

I don't know. I don't think we'll ever know the full explanation. UA thought he was going to be eligible. Why did they think that? I don't know. Was it a transcript to that point? Was it his ACT/SAT score? There was a reason UA thought he'd be eligible. Was Hoover lying at that point as well?

Based on the previous info. provided (again, whatever that was from above) our people thought he'd be eligible. When it looked like he wasn't I think we did the right thing by questioning it to Hoover as the article states. Why then gator would it be so strange to get the 2nd transcript that showed him eligible as our academic folks had been lead to believe all along?

Am I just not being cynical enough?
 

alagator

Verified Member
Century Club
gary funderburk said:
Transparent, that would be you attempting to pull down the university which you CLAIM to root for. You seem to think everything negative about the university and our fans rather than let it take its course and see the final outcome. That is what I meant about being transparent. I question your loyalty to the Tide. Couldn't be an honest mistake, no way. Bama must be up to something. As far as the University looking into it here..."Whenever we receive information questioning any student-athlete's eligibility, we evaluate that information and take appropriate action according to the circumstances," Alabama spokesman Doug Walker said.
Evidently they have a process and all we need to do is let it take its course before assuming anything.
Ah, so if I have my doubts about the competency of some of the people in charge at UA then my support for the institution itself is called into question?

Given our 15 year history of not exactly being too diligent with compliance and all, I have my doubts about the competency of some of those in charge. And given our present AD has demonstrated his looseness with the rules and his inability to demand excellence in performance (you know the process of doing the correct things correctly), I am a little distrusting. Sorry if you cannot see the difference between that and some blind support of UA simply because it is UA.

As I so transparently said, I want to know the things they did after the receipt of the second transcript. What due diligence in questioning the submission of the altered transcript that so magically cleared up UA's original questions.
 

alagator

Verified Member
Century Club
Delta...

UA people (admissions and/or compliance) saw that Chapman did not have the proper combination of GPA and test scores (remember the sliding scale), so they contacted Hoover officials and informed the Hoover people of the problem. Good job by all.

Then, a very short period of time later, UA receives a second transcript from Hoover that includes a grade change that raises Chapman's GPA juuuust enough to make him eligible. At that point, red flags should have been run up the flag pole and alarm bells sounding.

At that point the people at UA (admissions and/or compliance) should have gone into deep investigative mode. They should have made a number of inquiries to a number of different people at Hoover. They should not have accepted the word on a single individual.

Perhaps the UA people did exactly that. I don't know, which is why I asked the question and stated that I wanted to know in detail what actions UA people took. Our recent history is not too comforting to me.
 

gary funderburk

Verified Member
Extra Point Club
Since you have questions in regard to the actions of our administration, relative to Chapman's transcripts, it clearly (another word for transparent :lol: ) shows you jump to conclusions and base nothing off of facts and would rather slander the University than let it take its course. I will be the first to admit, if it is concluded the university had a hand in it, they screwed the pooch so to say. But to speculate such, is very irresponsible and shows little confidence and pride in the University of Alabama which I doubt you have/had anyways.
 

alagator

Verified Member
Century Club
gary funderburk said:
Since you have questions in regard to the actions of our administration, relative to Chapman's transcripts, it clearly (another word for transparent :lol: ) shows you jump to conclusions and base nothing off of facts and would rather slander the University than let it take its course. I will be the first to admit, if it is concluded the university had a hand in it, they screwed the pooch so to say. But to speculate such, is very irresponsible and shows little confidence and pride in the University of Alabama which I doubt you have/had anyways.
Okay gary, you are free to believe your blind acceptance of everything everyone in Tuscaloosa tells you is the unvarnished truth and that your belief that no one in UA athletics (or the broader UA administration in general) would EVER do anything incompetent or against the governing rules of the NCAA is the gold-standard for being a true and unquestioned fan of UA.

Given the fact we have an over fifteen-year history of bumbling idiots and outright liars and cheats far too often being put in position of high responsibility, I chose to be a little less jejune in my thoughts and opinions and conclusions. If my questioning disqualifies me as a real UA fan then so be it.

All I have stated here is that the FACTS surrounding this situation create a number of QUESTIONS to me that demand an answer. Combine that with our history and I would like to know the answers to those questions before I accept our innocence or proclaim our guilt (the latter of which I have not done YET despite your protestations that I have). The stench of possible impropriety exists coming from Tuscaloosa, and I need a little more assurance than 'we have followed our procedures' to satisfy my doubts. Again, given our history, such is an entirely reasonable position. And one I would argue any TRUE fan of UA's athletic interest would hold given the consequences of blind acceptance to our history, reputation, and honor in the event something is amiss.

But if you chose to go stick you head back in the sand (or some other hole), then feel free to do so.
 

Wiseace615

Verified Member
Extra Point Club
Gator-

I agree that if the University is in the wrong I would also like to know. I do not personally believe that to be the case in this instance for the main reason that if it they were going to do that for Chapman, they would have done it for Murphy IMO.

According to the article, which is the only source of info that we have at this point, the grade was off by a fraction of a point. When the University pointed this out, the people of Hoover's Guidance Department said that the computer program which records grades had misfigured his average. They also pointed out that they had found approximately 36 other instances of this happening with other students. Supposedly, they calculated by hand and his grade became an 89.5 which was rounded up to a 90. A to B. This type of rounding up of grades is common. Now, if this is in fact how it was reported to the University, then they would have no reason to further investigate. It is the responsibility of the High School to see that the proper documentation of grades is sent to the University that the student is going to attend. The sheer number of enrolling freshmen from around the country to a University the size of Alabama prevents them from doing an intense investigation into every transcript. Therefore the school is held responsible for sending the proper paperwork in, and liable if the documents are false.
 

alagator

Verified Member
Century Club
Wise...

I do mean to imply or allude that UA had anything to do with the actual changing of the grade.

My concern is how UA people responded when the new transcript arrived, with a single grade change that resulted in Chapman then being eligible, almost immediately after our people informed the Hoover officials that Chapman was not eligible.

What concerns did our people have at that point (if any)? What questions did they ask? Who did they ask? what follow-up questions or concerns (if any were raised by any responses)? What internal procedures did we take (like, did our compliance people ever get involved) to investigate the matter?

Or did our people act like Mr. Funderburk and just assume everything was ookie-dookie and go our merry way. Again, given our recent history, blind acceptance by our people of the grade change is/was not a wise course of action. For all I know, our people may have well done everything not only they could but should have done. I just want some factual assurances that is the case. Blind acceptance that our people did the right thing was/is not a wise course of action.
 

Proud Tiger

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I have no idea if anyone at UA was involved in any way or not. But since Chapman originally committed to Auburn and suddenly changed his mind at just the time he got a higher grade, doesn't anyone think it's possible a Bama fan at Hoover could have had something to do with the grade change. No one has mentioned that there was apparently some pressure to change a grade or grades for Murphy also.

And before you fire back at me for even suggesting such, let me readily say I believe this stuff goes on all the time in high schools. Teachers are often rabid fans of a school whether it be Bama, Auburn, Tenn. or whomever and this wouldn't be the first time a hot shot prospect has been helped/steered to a particular. university. JMHO.
 

alagator

Verified Member
Century Club
Proud Tiger said:
I have no idea if anyone at UA was involved in any way or not. But since Chapman originally committed to Auburn and suddenly changed his mind at just the time he got a higher grade, doesn't anyone think it's possible a Bama fan at Hoover could have had something to do with the grade change. No one has mentioned that there was apparently some pressure to change a grade or grades for Murphy also.

And before you fire back at me for even suggesting such, let me readily say I believe this stuff goes on all the time in high schools. Teachers are often rabid fans of a school whether it be Bama, Auburn, Tenn. or whomever and this wouldn't be the first time a hot shot prospect has been helped/steered to a particular. university. JMHO.
Here is what I think happened.

Someone at Hoover HS was informed that one of their own failed to make the proper combination of test score and GPA to qualify for his dream of receiving a football scholarship to an SEC school. That Hoover employee took it upon his/her-self to see if there was anything he/she could do to change that reality.

This Hoover person then made a change to the one grade of Chapman's and this enabled Chapman to suddenly qualify for the opportunity to both play college football and obtain a scholarship to pay for most of his college expenses.

I think this Hoover person would most likely have done the very same thing for Chapman if the college involved was Auburn, Tennessee, Florida, or anyone else. The motivation was most likely to help Chapman and not any particular school.

For the record, this is the very same opinion I have about the situation in South Alabama involving the two young men that signed to play at Auburn. Which is why I really grew tired of the UA people constantly painting that issue as some PROOF that Auburn was guilty again of academic fraud. The actual proof of UA's involvement in the Chapman issue is far greater than anything anyone has ever shown me directly involving Auburn in the South Alabama situation. And the proof of the schools involved in the actual changing of the grade is awfully thin, at best, in both cases.
 

Outlaw

Verified Member
Century Club
Proud Tiger said:
I have no idea if anyone at UA was involved in any way or not. But since Chapman originally committed to Auburn and suddenly changed his mind at just the time he got a higher grade, doesn't anyone think it's possible a Bama fan at Hoover could have had something to do with the grade change. No one has mentioned that there was apparently some pressure to change a grade or grades for Murphy also.

And before you fire back at me for even suggesting such, let me readily say I believe this stuff goes on all the time in high schools. Teachers are often rabid fans of a school whether it be Bama, Auburn, Tenn. or whomever and this wouldn't be the first time a hot shot prospect has been helped/steered to a particular. university. JMHO.

Kinda like the guy who was committed to Auburn who came out and said "I only did it so my Auburn fan teachers would give me a higher grade"? Don't remember the guy's name, but pork or Porter does as I seem to remember them posting it.

This actually does happen more than you would think. I've seen a lot of math errors where someone has made say a 79.45 and it gets rounded up to a B. It's really just what teacher you have. I've seen some teachers who round that up to a B, I've seen some who don't round it up. I've even seen/had a teacher where I had a 89.49 and did not get it rounded to an A. All in the teacher.

In college it seems to happen a lot more. Professors in college, to me anyway, seem to respect people who come to every class, do all their work, do their best, etc. Personally, I've had my grade bumped to an A when I actually had an 89 flat, and sometimes maybe even an 88.5.

Guy 1 - Absent the maximum amount, half arse tries, doesn't participate in discussion, doesn't participate much at all.
Guy 2 - No absences, tries his hardest, nice, polite, participates in everything, etc.

Both guys make a 79. Who do you think has the better chance at bringing a B out of the class?

Before anyone says this is cheating, remember that in college (at least here), professors have a little thing called participation grading. I tend to think this goes a lot farther than most people think.
 

Wiseace615

Verified Member
Extra Point Club
alagator said:
Proud Tiger said:
I have no idea if anyone at UA was involved in any way or not. But since Chapman originally committed to Auburn and suddenly changed his mind at just the time he got a higher grade, doesn't anyone think it's possible a Bama fan at Hoover could have had something to do with the grade change. No one has mentioned that there was apparently some pressure to change a grade or grades for Murphy also.

And before you fire back at me for even suggesting such, let me readily say I believe this stuff goes on all the time in high schools. Teachers are often rabid fans of a school whether it be Bama, Auburn, Tenn. or whomever and this wouldn't be the first time a hot shot prospect has been helped/steered to a particular. university. JMHO.
Here is what I think happened.

Someone at Hoover HS was informed that one of their own failed to make the proper combination of test score and GPA to qualify for his dream of receiving a football scholarship to an SEC school. That Hoover employee took it upon his/her-self to see if there was anything he/she could do to change that reality.

This Hoover person then made a change to the one grade of Chapman's and this enabled Chapman to suddenly qualify for the opportunity to both play college football and obtain a scholarship to pay for most of his college expenses.

I think this Hoover person would most likely have done the very same thing for Chapman if the college involved was Auburn, Tennessee, Florida, or anyone else. The motivation was most likely to help Chapman and not any particular school.

For the record, this is the very same opinion I have about the situation in South Alabama involving the two young men that signed to play at Auburn. Which is why I really grew tired of the UA people constantly painting that issue as some PROOF that Auburn was guilty again of academic fraud. The actual proof of UA's involvement in the Chapman issue is far greater than anything anyone has ever shown me directly involving Auburn in the South Alabama situation. And the proof of the schools involved in the actual changing of the grade is awfully thin, at best, in both cases.

Gator-

First, let me apologize for not responding to your post sooner. For some reason the people here actually expect me to do what they're paying me to do :roll: .

Based on some of the things that I know, I would say that your theory is pretty sound. The article stated that some of the teachers felt pressured to change grades. It's pretty safe to assume that this happens more than people want to admit within large schools with a nationally famous football program. I don't agree with it, but I'm no naive enough to believe that it doesn't exist. If you have access to Birmingham news reports, you know that Hoover has been under a microscope lately for various reasons and it will probably get worse before it gets better.
I hate the fact that this instance it involved the University, even to a small degree.

I agree that it would be sensible for the school to have had suspicions about the new transcript. I also understand where the school would trust the High School to have their records in order. I just hope that everything turns out okay for the kid. All I know is, in 10 days all that we'll have to worry Western Carolina.

Roll Tide!

Clayton
 
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