| FTBL NCAA partially bans Indian mascots

[bear facts]

nicodemus wrote:

Obviously, your wife is entitled to her opinion (and it holds more weight than mine), but I'm just pointing out why I don't think those other nicknames are "loaded" like the Indian ones are.

Need to clarify something. I never said my wife thought those other nicknames were loaded. That was me, who loosely tossed those nicknames around.

nicodemus wrote:

Well, in the case of Notre Dame, it was a school started primarily by Irish Catholics, so it's not even the same argument. If Indians had started and/or named the current schools, then it would be a moot argument.

Cowboys applies to a profession, not an ethnic group.

I don't see what Demon Deacons has to do with the argument.

"Sooners" was a term to describe people that made a claim on land, and while they were almost certainly all white, probably another case of people calling themselves something and not representative of an ethnic group.

There aren't any Spartans living in the USA. Heck, there's only 19,000 in Greece and that town was rebuilt by King Otto in the 19th Century, and the nickname certainly hearkens to the ancient Spartans.

Troy doesn't even exist.

A gaucho is nothing more than a word used in some South American countries for what we call cowboys. It doesn't denote an ethnic group, it's even a last name in Brazil (see the famous Brazilian soccer player Ronaldinho Gaucho.)

I think what a lot of people don't like (including my Indian friend) is the s stereotypical images it portrays. Your wife points out the Cleveland Indians mascot for one, but my friend points to things like the Seminoles mascot, (i.e. a white guy dressed up like an Indian and acting goofy), not to mention the days when the Atlanta Braves had Chief Knockahoma (don't know if they still do, I stopped following baseball years ago) and a teepee set up in the middle of the stands at Fulton County Stadium.

You make good points about the fact that the forementioned nicknames should not be considered offensive. That's just the point I wanted to make, it shouldn't matter. Heck, I was being sarcastic.

As far as the Fightin' Irish go, even though Catholics came up with that nickname, it still doesn't change the fact that there is a group of people that are stereotyped as loving to brawl and to drink. And just because Catholics gave Notre Dame that nickname does not make it right. You mean if a group of Caucasians decided to call a school the Reform Rednecks that it would be okay? (I kinda like the ring of that namethough) Heck, if that is the case, then I know of reservation and Indian schools who were given Native American names and symbols as mascots by their own tribes. My wife graduated from a high school whose mascot was the "Indians," which just happen to start out as an all-Indian school when she was younger.


I could down down your list and make additional remarks but all I would be doing is using up time. it wouldn't solve anything or make a difference. But the position you have taken about some of these labels being terms and having nothing to do with race or ethnicity may not be totally true. Don't know the history behind the word "Sooner" be it would not surprise me it it didn't at one time mean to be a deragotory term toward a group of individuals just as "squatters" was not a very favorable compliment toward a group of people.

Also, Native Americans were wrongly labeled "Indians" in the first place, so if you want to get into semantics, name origins and derivatives; that word is a misnomer.

Also, "cowboy" is a not even a profession for some individuals who are called or call themselves cowboys. It is more of a lifestyle based on past traditions and culture and, of course, Hollywood's inaccurate portrayals of those people.

The word "Spartan" is not only a term or reference for a certain group of people, but it also carries very strong connotations (negative or not) about a particularly way someone lives.

Btw, Chief Knockahoma's teepee was not located in the middle of Fulton County stadium but beyond the left field corner. Got a couple of photos of CK, teepee, and even the cute little Native American princess (don't believe she really was) that used to be at the Braves' games.

Carry on!

 

[bear facts]

Troy doesn't even exist

Troy, as an inhabited location does not exist today but existed for something like 4000 years through history. They've unearthed something like 9 successive settlements built one on top of the other in the location that we call Troy (also known as Illium throughout ancient history) located adjacent to the Turkish town of Hisarlik. The ruins are there to prove that it did exist.

Not arguing with you, just making a point is all. It might be one thing for the NCAA to ban the name "Big Foot" or PETA suing a school for using that mascot since there's never been any real proof that the creature exists. There's a difference.

Folks in South Alabama know that Troy exists.

 

[Guest]

Nicodemus,

What about teams like FSU that has written permission from the Seminole Nation to us their name as a mascot? The Seminoles, according to what I've read, use the fact that FSU has them as their nickname as some type of a promotional tool. And according to a friend of mine Utah has the same thing with the Ute reservation.

Basically what I'm asking is if the tribe being used as a mascot/nickname doesn't have a problem with it, why should the NCAA or any one else be worried about it?

 

[bear facts]

One thing about my grandfather too is that you know the Choctaws were pretty much confined to the southwest area of Alabama. My grandfather's family originally migrated from Macon Ga (way back in the day) and then settled in West Alabama, above TTown. I've always thought it would be interesting to know how his parents met, especially with Choctaws not native to our particular area.

Chopper, I'm not up to snuff on Native American history in the Southeastern U.S. , I do know that my wife's tribe, the Coushatti or Koasati, originated in Alabama and migrated to parts of Louisiana and East Texas (where some banded with the Comanche). As far as the Choctaws' origins and movement, I can not factually say.

Do know that my wife's tribe did belong to the Creek Confederacy and that the federal government did not recognize them because of their small number until the 1970's. English is my wife's second language and only within the last 25 years have someone been able to develop a written alphabet for the Coushatti language. In fact, a linguist and his family spent ten years living in the same house my wife grew up in while he worked to create a written alphabet and vocabulary. What really is interesting is how these various regional tribes have difficulties understanding each other's spoken languages, yet there are certain words that appear to be universal. For example, "toma" (word for red) is used by my wife's tribe, and the Houmas, and the Seminoles. There are many more words used by more than one tribe.

 

[Guest]

factor, the Seminole are going to have a lot of wordsd that are the same as several different tribes. The Seminole was not an original tribe. It was formed after the US goverment started forcing Indians onto reservations. The Seminole nation is a conglomerate of Creek, Cherokee, Choctah, Chicasaw and even Apaches that all banded together to stand against "The White Man". And if I remember my history correctly, they never signed a peace treaty with the U.S. I know even if they did, they were the last tribe to do so.

 

[bear facts]

factor, the Seminole are going to have a lot of wordsd that are the same as several different tribes. The Seminole was not an original tribe. It was formed after the US goverment started forcing Indians onto reservations. The Seminole nation is a conglomerate of Creek, Cherokee, Choctah, Chicasaw and even Apaches that all banded together to stand against "The White Man". And if I remember my history correctly, they never signed a peace treaty with the U.S. I know even if they did, they were the last tribe to do so.

Thanks Bo, that would be a good reason for the "homogenized" use of certain words by different SE tribesi. Of course, we can't forget the Spanish and French influences on some of those words, too.

 

[nicodemus]

Nicodemus,

What about teams like FSU that has written permission from the Seminole Nation to us their name as a mascot? The Seminoles, according to what I've read, use the fact that FSU has them as their nickname as some type of a promotional tool. And according to a friend of mine Utah has the same thing with the Ute reservation.

Basically what I'm asking is if the tribe being used as a mascot/nickname doesn't have a problem with it, why should the NCAA or any one else be worried about it?

Apparently some Oklahoma Seminoles on the rez don't like it. Eventhough they're dislocated from their native area, it doesn't make them less Seminole.

 

[nicodemus]

Also, Native Americans were wrongly labeled "Indians" in the first place, so if you want to get into semantics, name origins and derivatives; that word is a misnomer.

I know, I'm married to an Asian Indian, people ask all the time "what tribe?" when she says she's Indian.

I'd gotten used to using "Native American" and then my friend in Oklahoma told me he hates being called "Native American" and prefers "Indian" due to the primitive imagery that often accompanies the word "native."

 

[nicodemus]

BTW, I'm not a big time crusader about this. I just have a very well read, well spoken Indian/Native American friend who has largely shaped my views on the issue. I'm sure someone else like him could similarly provide an opposite viewpoint.

I'm just more or less passing along his words on the matter.

 

[imported_porkchop]

LOL! :lol: Quote of the day!

I know, I'm married to an Asian Indian, people ask all the time "what tribe?" when she says she's Indian.



Kinda reminds me of that show King of the Hill. I don't watch it often but I remember seeing parts of one of the eposodes where the white guys are talking to this Asian man and they're like, "so are you Chinese or Japanese"? He responds, "I'm Laotian".

"Uh......so is that Chines or Japanese"? :lol:

I can relate Nicodemus. My wife happens to be Philippino but she looks Hispanic. It never fails! When we go out, people speak Spanish to her. She's like, "I'm not Mexican. I have no idea what you just said to me". :lol:

 

[bear facts]

LOL! :lol: Quote of the day!

I know, I'm married to an Asian Indian, people ask all the time "what tribe?" when she says she's Indian.



Kinda reminds me of that show King of the Hill. I don't watch it often but I remember seeing parts of one of the eposodes where the white guys are talking to this Asian man and they're like, "so are you Chinese or Japanese"? He responds, "I'm Laotian".

"Uh......so is that Chines or Japanese"? :lol:

I can relate Nicodemus. My wife happens to be Philippino but she looks Hispanic. It never fails! When we go out, people speak Spanish to her. She's like, "I'm not Mexican. I have no idea what you just said to me". :lol:

You guys are cracking me up, and I have some of those stories as well. I met my wife in Baton Rouge, and the first time I saw her I asked her if she were Polynesian; I also turned to the friend I was with, and being the hopeless romantic I am, told him that I was gonna marry her . . . and kept my word.

On our honeymoon, we went to Acapulco, and she got the same reaction from the locals; everyone would speak to her in Spanish because they thought she was Hispanic. I remember venturing into a not-so-desirable part of the city and began being followed, (of course, it was a no brainer that I was an American and everywhere we went I was called Crocodile Dundee--now the story has been dated), but I turned to her and told her not to look obvious but to pick up the pace and to cross over the street to avoid some upcoming alleys, and then I made the remark, "I think they know we are Americans," and my wife so-matter-of-factly replies, "What do you mean, we, gringo?" Very much like the Lone Ranger and Tonto joke.

But the kicker was when we returned South to Vicksburg after having spent three years in the Phoenix area while in graduate school at Arizona State, and we went to the bank to open up our checking and savings accounts. This was in the mid-90's before Vicksburg began seeing a large influx of Hispanics. But as we sat there filling out paperwork, the bank lady asked for some ID, so we showed her our Arizona driver's licenses. Within a few moments I could tell that the lady wanted to say something, and then out of the blue she turns to my wife and exclaims, "I know where you can get some real tortillas!" We both almost busted out laughing at the lady's remark, and the fact she had assumed my wife was Mexican because we had come from Arizona. :roll:

My wife's from SW Louisiana, and, though, she can make a mean Mexican dish, her staple cruisine is Cajun food.

 

[Tydegrrl]

Mmmmmmmmm, cajun food...

 

[imported_porkchop]

LOL! That's funny factor! We don't need no stinkin' gringos! :lol: ;flame

Yeah my wife get's it all the time though whenever we go out. Especially here in L.A. and when we lived in New Mexico. The thing is, is she really does look Hispanic. She's Asian but her family has Spanish blood in them and she seemingly got the largest does of it. I've told her before (much to her chagrin) that she looks Mexican. I do it partly because I do think she looks Mexican, and I do it partly to get a rise out of her. She hates it! But honestly, the first time I saw her I thought she was.

As far as your comment about "marrying her", that's kinda the same thing that happened with me and my wife. I just instantly knew for some reason that I would end up marrying her. One of my buddies in New Mexico ended up going to another base about the time me and my wife started dating and he came back a couple of years later just visiting the old gang and when I told him me and Nancy had gotten married he had made the statement "yeah I knew you were going to marry that girl. I could tell the first time you looked at her".

Kinda funny how things work out.

 

[bear facts]

LOL! That's funny factor! We don't need no stinkin' gringos! :lol: ;flame

Yeah my wife get's it all the time though whenever we go out. Especially here in L.A. and when we lived in New Mexico. The thing is, is she really does look Hispanic. She's Asian but her family has Spanish blood in them and she seemingly got the largest does of it. I've told her before (much to her chagrin) that she looks Mexican. I do it partly because I do think she looks Mexican, and I do it partly to get a rise out of her. She hates it! But honestly, the first time I saw her I thought she was.

As far as your comment about "marrying her", that's kinda the same thing that happened with me and my wife. I just instantly knew for some reason that I would end up marrying her. One of my buddies in New Mexico ended up going to another base about the time me and my wife started dating and he came back a couple of years later just visiting the old gang and when I told him me and Nancy had gotten married he had made the statement "yeah I knew you were going to marry that girl. I could tell the first time you looked at her".

Kinda funny how things work out.

That's great, Chopper! Yep, sometimes you just know, don't cha? . . . kinda like right now and knowing Bama will, without a doubt, be back this season. 8)

RTR!

Boy, did this thread get hijacked or what?

Sorry, Tydegrrl.

 

[nicodemus]

I can relate Nicodemus. My wife happens to be Philippino but she looks Hispanic. It never fails! When we go out, people speak Spanish to her. She's like, "I'm not Mexican. I have no idea what you just said to me". :lol:

Oddly enough, my wife has been confused for Mexican too.

Filipinos I can at least understand since they were a Spanish colony and there was a lot of intermingling.

My wife has been confused for Mexican and Hawaiian! (She is very fair skinned for an Indian)

 

[bamafan4ever]

Personally, I am sick of PC. These days, everyone has a chip on their shoulders about something. They simply need to get over themselves. By the way, it is mostly white people that hang out in honkeytonks. I think it's due time that these clubs were called caucassiantonks! :roll:

 

[bamafan4ever]

...and oh yeah. In the PC correct society we live in, any teams with a name that infers a masculine gender need to be changed immediately. I am all for the movement to change the name of the OK State Cowboys to the OK State Cowpersons. No slam on you nicodemus but your friend seems to be the sensitive sort. In the long run, I would rather be ethnic than ugly.

 

[Tydegrrl]

Boy, did this thread get hijacked or what?

Sorry, Tydegrrl.

Ah, I ain't mad atcha... :wink:

 

[bear facts]

...and oh yeah. In the PC correct society we live in, any teams with a name that infers a masculine gender need to be changed immediately. I am all for the movement to change the name of the OK State Cowboys to the OK State Cowpersons. No slam on you nicodemus but your friend seems to be the sensitive sort. In the long run, I would rather be ethnic than ugly.

LOL! Greg you starting to sound like Mad Max. With all that compassion exuding from your last two posts, now I know how you've come about to get your last name . . . "Truelove" . . . fits you perfectly. :wink:

No slam on you nicodemus but your friend seems to be the sensitive sort.

Yep, either that or he has a good case of the red a**.


Sorry nic, couldn't resist. Just kidding.




Gosh, I hope my wife doesn't see that last remark.

 

[imported_Porter]

FSU unveiled their new mascot today...