| CURRENT EVENTS Israel vs. Iran, and where will the US fit in?

[musso]

And the Biden administration recommends a diplomatic response…

Because our two decades' worth of bombings, invasions, regime changes, occupations, killings, displacement, mass immigration, etc. has produced a splendid record of success!

 

[musso]

the first time Iran has launch an assault on Israel

Retaliation, not assault. Assault is what you call the Israeli killing of Iranian generals in sovereign Syria a few days ago.

 

[It Takes Eleven]

Retaliation, not assault. Assault is what you call the Israeli killing of Iranian generals in sovereign Syria a few days ago.

You know Iran has used their puppets to attack Israel for decades, and they've trained and supplied them.

"Sovereign Syria". I don't think I've heard that term in a while.

 

[musso]

You know Iran has used their puppets to attack Israel for decades,

Again, to retaliate against a regime that continues to expand illegally into the West Bank and degrade living conditions in Gaza to the breaking point.

You can’t move into a neighborhood and expect no retaliation when you steal the homes and land of the families around you who predated you. And when you lobby powerful benefactors from outside the neighborhood to give you perpetual aid and arms to make you the strongest bully in the hood, you can’t be surprised if others begin to support and champion the downtrodden whom you tread upon.

"Sovereign Syria". I don't think I've heard that term in a while.

I know, that’s why I said it. Mainstream media and politicians under the influence of AIPAC want you to think Israel’s borders are the only borders in the world that matter, even more than our own.

 

[musso]

@TerryP , you better check your boy. He’s about to turn me into the old me, before fatherhood mellowed me out.

 

[It Takes Eleven]

Again, to retaliate against a regime that continues to expand illegally into the West Bank and degrade living conditions in Gaza to the breaking point.

You can’t move into a neighborhood and expect no retaliation when you steal the homes and land of the families around you who predated you. And when you lobby powerful benefactors from outside the neighborhood to give you perpetual aid and arms to make you the strongest bully in the hood, you can’t be surprised if others begin to support and champion the downtrodden whom you tread upon.


I know, that’s why I said it. Mainstream media and politicians under the influence of AIPAC want you to think Israel’s borders are the only borders in the world that matter, even more than our own.

Yes, of course. Find your own time to draw a line. It makes perfect sense.

 

[musso]

Yes, of course. Find your own time to draw a line. It makes perfect sense.

That's not a rebuttal.

What doesn't make sense is supporting a government fused with a particular race and religion, when the cosmopolitan West subscribes to ideals of a separation of church and state and racial equality.

What doubly doesn't make sense is calling this government "the only democracy in the region" when rabbis subsidized by that government openly preach a doctrine of racial and religious supremacy.

What triply doesn't make sense is to think that fair-skinned caucasians from anywhere in the world who can claim their mother was of Jewish ancestry, is entitled to land and a home in this country, subsidized by their government (and by default, ours too), while indigenous Arabs with continuous and recent ties to and ownership of the land have been evicted or bulldozed out of their homes.

What fourthly doesn't make sense is to justify an unconditional alliance with this government and concomitant financial aid as we simultaneously give aid and weapons to all of its Arab neighbors, to the anger of the Arab masses who don't want the West subverting democracy in their countries and region.

What fifthly doesn't make sense is to expect peace, and when conflict ensues, blame only Arabs, when we've placed this racist, theocratic government in one of the most trafficked and contested strips of land in history, axial to Europe, Asia, and Africa, in the midst of an overwhelming majority of Arabs and Muslims.

What sixthly doesn't make sense, is to vilify resentment towards Israel and the West in general who subsidizes it, when the planet's most powerful hegemons of the past 300 years (the UK, France, and the US) are collectively responsible for spilling the most blood, invaded the most foreign lands, and dropped more bombs on civilians (including atomic bombs) than any other authoritarian regime during the same span.

What seventhly doesn't make sense, is how these same hegemons originally used the umbrella of the UN and their disproportionate influence within it, to establish the founding and legitimacy of Israel, but then whenever 99% of the UN's members object to policies and actions of Israel we reliably use our veto power in the Security Council to provide continuous diplomatic cover for Israel's violations of the UN and international law.

I could go on, as you can tell...

 

[TerryP]

Retaliation, not assault. Assault is what you call the Israeli killing of Iranian generals in sovereign Syria a few days ago.

Which cart are you going to put before the horse next?

I can't remember the name of the group, exactly. Coalition Council of Islamic Revolutionaries ...something like that. The group lauded Zahedi as having a “strategic role in forming and strengthening the resistance front as well as in planning and executing the Al-Aqsa Storm,”

Zahedi, the general killed in the Syrian bombing.

You say retaliation. Isn't his assassination retaliation for the Hamas attacks on the 7th?

Assault is the correct word here.

 

[TerryP]

 

[24and7]

Funny how all the "Islam" on the receiving end of US aid and US arms deals has gotten along just fine with Israel for decades now, including short-lived ISIS. Moreover, all of Israel's "hostile" Arab neighbors stood by idly, while at times helping to protect Israel from Iran's drones and missiles. Would have been an opportune time for additional Islamic states to pile on during the chaos, if they were really enemies of the Jewish state.

So maybe it has much less to do with race or religion than with alliances, petro-dollars, and if you've been paying attention to the region, the construction of Middle Eastern oil pipelines to supply energy to Europe to weaken Russia's status as monopoly provider.

You misunderstand what I said.. Israel is trying to fulfill the prophecy of bringing about their “Messiah”… The red heifer cows are going to be sacrificed to clean the tools to build the Jewish temple.. They must use the blood and ashes of the cows to do such…These cows must be sacrificed by Passover… Then, Israel must tear down the dome of the rock to build this temple.. so the reason Hamas attacked Israel was due to the presence of these 10 red heifer cows..The Head of Hamas even put out a statement saying just that..It was a preemptive strike… the one thing that will bring war from all Islam against Israel will be when the cows are sacrificed..Islam will go into full jihad to protect the dome of the rock.. that’s what this whole war is really about.. they want you to believe that is about other things.. The media is covering a lot of this up…
But as far as Iran goes… I say
Drop a bomb hot enough to turn all the sand into glass over there..Iran is undefendable.. they even create terror/proxy groups to destabilize other Islamic countries and cause civil strife..

 

[It Takes Eleven]

That's not a rebuttal.

What doesn't make sense is supporting a government fused with a particular race and religion, when the cosmopolitan West subscribes to ideals of a separation of church and state and racial equality.

What doubly doesn't make sense is calling this government "the only democracy in the region" when rabbis subsidized by that government openly preach a doctrine of racial and religious supremacy.

What triply doesn't make sense is to think that fair-skinned caucasians from anywhere in the world who can claim their mother was of Jewish ancestry, is entitled to land and a home in this country, subsidized by their government (and by default, ours too), while indigenous Arabs with continuous and recent ties to and ownership of the land have been evicted or bulldozed out of their homes.

What fourthly doesn't make sense is to justify an unconditional alliance with this government and concomitant financial aid as we simultaneously give aid and weapons to all of its Arab neighbors, to the anger of the Arab masses who don't want the West subverting democracy in their countries and region.

What fifthly doesn't make sense is to expect peace, and when conflict ensues, blame only Arabs, when we've placed this racist, theocratic government in one of the most trafficked and contested strips of land in history, axial to Europe, Asia, and Africa, in the midst of an overwhelming majority of Arabs and Muslims.

What sixthly doesn't make sense, is to vilify resentment towards Israel and the West in general who subsidizes it, when the planet's most powerful hegemons of the past 300 years (the UK, France, and the US) are collectively responsible for spilling the most blood, invaded the most foreign lands, and dropped more bombs on civilians (including atomic bombs) than any other authoritarian regime during the same span.

What seventhly doesn't make sense, is how these same hegemons originally used the umbrella of the UN and their disproportionate influence within it, to establish the founding and legitimacy of Israel, but then whenever 99% of the UN's members object to policies and actions of Israel we reliably use our veto power in the Security Council to provide continuous diplomatic cover for Israel's violations of the UN and international law.

I could go on, as you can tell...

Now that you've vilified everyone except residents of the West Bank and Gaza - not mention the Iranians - and categorized the United States during and since WWII as authoritarian, and made it clear you don't believe Israel has a right to exist in its current state, there's not much room for discussion.

In your libertarian mind, should we be concerned with anything beyond our borders? World trade? Immigration?

 

[musso]

You say retaliation. Isn't his assassination retaliation for the Hamas attacks on the 7th?

Oh I haven't heard that justification. Last I heard Israel hadn't even officially taken credit for the strike, much less provided a reason.

I'm pretty sure I shared in a thread after Oct 7th that Bibi admitted to sponsoring Hamas years ago, even asking GCC states to chip in, as a way to prevent a united PA in both the West Bank and in Gaza (divide and conquer). Google "we control the height of the flames." There's reason to entertain the possibility of a false flag on the 7th, but even if you reject that, the incident on the 7th was immediately after the raids on Al-Aqsa mosque (third holiest site) where they were beating unarmed people and using tear gas and rubber bullets for no known reason. Whatever Israel-firsters in the US think of the matter, there have been major demonstrations among Israelis in opposition to Bibi ever since and his ratings have plummeted. Between him and Biden, I don't know who needs a war more, to deflect the ire of their own subjects towards a manufactured external threat.

 

[musso]

You misunderstand what I said.. Israel is trying to fulfill the prophecy of bringing about their “Messiah”… The red heifer cows are going to be sacrificed to clean the tools to build the Jewish temple..

I'm aware of a radical movement to resume sacrifices within Israel, but I tend to think there are more practical, geopolitical, and economic causes to current events, some of which I've outlined in this thread.

But as far as Iran goes… I say
Drop a bomb hot enough to turn all the sand into glass over there..

How is that not terrorism? And by the way, such actions would threaten the third largest community of Jews (outside of Israel and the US) in the world, not to mention starting something that could send the world back into the stone age, if not worse. I shouldn't even respond to such insanity. Please, go seek therapy to deal with your inner demons so that you don't play it out in the real world.

 

[24and7]

I'm aware of a radical movement to resume sacrifices within Israel, but I tend to think there are more practical, geopolitical, and economic causes to current events, some of which I've outlined in this thread.

How is that not terrorism? And by the way, such actions would threaten the third largest community of Jews (outside of Israel and the US) in the world, not to mention starting something that could send the world back into the stone age, if not worse. I shouldn't even respond to such insanity. Please, go seek therapy to deal with your inner demons so that you don't play it out in the real world.

A lot of our troops were killed by those IRG bastards in countries not there own.. Countries they had no business in either.. If they ever need anybody to execute or participate against them in a firing squad, I’m there! The only good Iranian military is a dead one.

 

[musso]

Now that you've vilified everyone except residents of the West Bank and Gaza - not mention the Iranians -

To whom much [power, wealth, influence, etc.] is given, much is required. You criticize the powerful, not the powerless. The burden of proof is upon the shoulders of the parties who have invaded, occupied and overthrown governments all over the planet in the name of civilizing and democratizing the unlearned, not on those who have been invaded, occupied, and destabilized. No one is perfect, but you first judge those who are most responsible for the world order we have been given.

and categorized the United States during and since WWII as authoritarian

The most expensive government in the history of the world, with the largest footprint in the history of the world, cannot help but be authoritarian. The power of a government to spend constitutes the power of that government to destroy, nevermind all the bells and whistles that government creates to use against all would-be opponents. Toppling foreign governments who oppose the designs of Wall Street for their imports and exports is authoritarian. Running covert operations inside our country to discredit and blackmail reformers who gain significant followings to enact change, is authoritarian. This would only be difficult to accept for someone suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Are you a veteran?

you don't believe Israel has a right to exist in its current state, there's not much room for discussion.

Governments don't have rights to exist. Rights belong to individual human beings, not to groups of humans or to organizations. Reread your Declaration of Independence.

In your libertarian mind, should we be concerned with anything beyond our borders? World trade? Immigration?

Oh most certainly. As Terry and I have discussed, I've evolved over time. I don't really know if libertarian is what I identify as anymore, but I maintain all public policy ought to be informed by libertarian political theory, Austrian-free market economics, and public choice theory. We live in a world of less than ideal governments mostly run by adults who were neglected or abused in their youth and with dangerous toys at their disposal. So that requires particular preparations from our own government, which don't always align with my ideals. But for far too long, our government has been dominated by forces and interests that profit from conflict and war, and as a result, consolidation. We have to take a sober look at this and realize that when the most powerful government in the history of the world has been hijacked from its stated ideals, the world will react. We have to be responsible for our actions first, before blaming how weaker actors react to our belligerence and trespassing. It's a truism that wherever you have an asymmetry of power among actors, abuse will enuse. The US may be exceptional, but it isn't immune from this law of nature. This law would remain just as valid if the roles were reversed, if we were surrounded by Iranian military bases in Mexico and Canada with their aircraft carriers sitting offshore.

 

[It Takes Eleven]

To whom much [power, wealth, influence, etc.] is given, much is required. You criticize the powerful, not the powerless. The burden of proof is upon the shoulders of the parties who have invaded, occupied and overthrown governments all over the planet in the name of civilizing and democratizing the unlearned, not on those who have been invaded, occupied, and destabilized. No one is perfect, but you first judge those who are most responsible for the world order we have been given.

snippage

The US may be exceptional, but it isn't immune from this law of nature.

Yet, you'll always blame America first. That's not analysis, that's a default position.

 

[XXL TideFan]

I recently saw this quote. Kind of fitting at this juncture in our history.

“America is a corpse being consumed by maggots. Liberals are rooting for the maggots. Conservatives are rooting for the corpse."

 

[XXL TideFan]

This is the aid to Israel loop. Understand simple things to see the bigger picture. Now shut up, work, & pay taxes that you are literally a captured slave for. Something like 25-40% of the year it takes 100% of your income to pay. We are slaves to our government and every government they give aid to.

 

[musso]

Countries they had no business in either..

“No business in????” Can you really blame them for trying to influence and shape the reconstruction of its neighboring country, after we destroyed it under false pretenses and was behaving on the international stage like an unhinged drunkard trying to pick a fight with anyone who looked at us wrong??? How would you feel if at the end of this list of seven countries, we were named rather than Iran???

If the roles were reversed, and Iran experienced an event like 9/11, and shortly afterward they hastily decided to enact a plan to overthrow a list of countries finishing off with us, regardless if we were involved or not, wouldn’t you support our government trying to spread our influence and goodwill in our region to make it more difficult for Iran to harm us? This is what I mean when we must be responsible for ourselves and what we’ve done to elicit the worst behavior from other countries. When you threaten others needlessly, you incentivize them to elect the most radical and extreme leaders and act the most irrationally. Nevermind the fact that Iran and Shia Islam had nothing to do with 9/11 or Isis while Sunni Islam and the GCC did. Have we done anything to exact revenge on the Saudis or Qataris????? No. In fact we helped them by overthrowing nothing but secular governments in the region: Iraq, Libya, and almost in Syria, which Israel is working on. After the longest occupation in our history, we left Afghanistan with the same Taliban in power as before 9/11. Strange since it was supposed to be the war on Islamic radicalism, not Arab pluralism or secularism, right?

 

[24and7]

“No business in????” Can you really blame them for trying to influence and shape the reconstruction of its neighboring country, after we destroyed it under false pretenses and was behaving on the international stage like an unhinged drunkard trying to pick a fight with anyone who looked at us wrong??? How would you feel if at the end of this list of seven countries, we were named rather than Iran???

If the roles were reversed, and Iran experienced an event like 9/11, and shortly afterward they hastily decided to enact a plan to overthrow a list of countries finishing off with us, regardless if we were involved or not, wouldn’t you support our government trying to spread our influence and goodwill in our region to make it more difficult for Iran to harm us? This is what I mean when we must be responsible for ourselves and what we’ve done to elicit the worst behavior from other countries. When you threaten others needlessly, you incentivize them to elect the most radical and extreme leaders and act the most irrationally. Nevermind the fact that Shia Islam had nothing to do with 9/11 and Isis while Sunni Islam and the GCC did. Have we done anything to exact revenge on the Saudis or Qataris????? No. In fact we helped them by overthrowing nothing but secular governments in the region: Iraq, Libya, and almost in Syria, which Israel is working on. After the longest occupation in our history, we left Afghanistan with the same Taliban in power as before 9/11. Strange since it was supposed to be the war on Islamic radicalism, not Arab pluralism or secularism, right?

Iran had no business in Afghanistan.. no business in Iraq.. no business trying to overthrow Jordan..